Saturday, April 25, 2009

Explaining The Italian Theory Of The Attack That Is Being Lost In Translation

Posted by Arnold_Layne

At the trial, Gioia Brocci from the forensic department in Rome just told the court that Knox had reacted visibly when taken into the house’s kitchen after the murder.

She said: “˜‘A drawer with cutlery in it was opened, and I remember that Knox started to tremble, she closed her eyes and put her hands over her ears…. She reacted in such a way that she had to be escorted out of the room and taken into the corridor by the officers from the Perugia Flying Squad who were with her.’‘

Here is one explanation that extends from that testimony. It is in sharp contrast to “A Drug-Fuelled Extreme-Sex Game Gone Awry” which definitely is not what Italians are hearing. 

This scenario leads to the inference that it starts as something of a pre-intended taunting and hazing led by an angry Knox intent on payback. It does not start as a preconceived murder because there seems no preparation for a premeditated murder.

When Knox and Sollecito arrive at the cottage, they bring a jackknife and a kitchen knife.  The kitchen knife may be wrapped in paper and carried in Knox’s handbag.  When they arrive, Sollecito perhaps puts the large knife someplace inconspicuous but handy. 

That place could of course be the knife drawer in the kitchen that Knox later reacted to.

They have collected Guede in the park, Knox lets him in, and the Treacherous Trio is complete. They gather with Meredith in the place where most people welcoming their guests congregate, the kitchen.  They may even munch on some mushrooms.

At some point, whatever has been worked out with Guede ahead of time is initiated.  What some might regard as BDSM, others, like me, consider more along the lines of aggregated sexual assault and battery with a deadly weapon. 

Knox retrieves the kitchen knife from the drawer.  She uses it as an extremely threatening weapon, to intimidate Meredith.  Sollecito and Guede physically restrain her while Guede sexually assaults her.  Possibly Knox directs Sollecito to physically assault her with the small knife to make her be more compliant.

Meredith is anything but compliant, fights back, and pleads with them. 

This leads to the jackknife wounds to her neck and eventually to her being strangled.  Meredith Kercher does not go gently into that good night.  She fights her way back up to her feet, and she screams. 

This perhaps is when Knox delivers the fatal blow to her neck with the kitchen knife, to stop her screaming and getting away to seek help.

They then drag her to her room and lock the door.  At this point, Guede grabs some toilet paper to clean the blood off himself, and they flee.  Rudy goes dancing, and the Deadly Duo go to the park till the way is clear for a clean-up.

Knox and Sollecito return after the broken-down car is removed, arrange the bedroom leaving the bra clasp, stage the break-in, and clean the rooms where they had been.  They have not been in the bedroom very much so this is left pretty much alone. 

They cleanse the kitchen of all DNA and fingerprints and perhaps bring more bleach when the Conad store opens in the morning.

Until Amanda Knox pulls the kitchen knife from the drawer, each of them, Guede, Sollecito, and Knox are acting as individuals with their consciences and moral upbringing intact.

When the knife comes out, they become something else, and the group becomes responsible for what happens, not each themselves.

Is it possible that the reason they are being so tight-lipped is that if any one of them identifies the other’s actions, then that person would have to accept responsibility for what he or she also actually did do? 

Does it stay a group action only if the group remains intact?


This is why the kind of report that CBS put together is so utterly absurd. The evidence is telling, it is accumulating, and it is coming from expert professionals who had nothing previously to do with Prosecutor Mignini.

And that surprise testimony from Gioia Brocci about Knox’s reaction to the knives in the kitchen was really quite extraordinary. If it jolted us, it sure must have jolted the jury.

Knox seems to have run the gamut of out-of-the-ordinary reactions after the police and the friends arrived at the house. And this reaction was REALLY out of the ordinary.

Arnold’s scenario is one I could be inclined to - it allows for some premeditation, but not of murder, and it starts fairly mildly and explodes.

No sex game, whatever that is, and possibly no drug-fueled unhinging.

One variation is that the knife really does arrive to cut mushrooms, and that drug-dealing with Guede is going down at the kitchen table - when poor unsuspecting Meredith walks in.

She takes strong exception, as Meredith would. And thereafter, she fights for her very life. Just as Arnold describes.

Miss Represented will be walking us through the psychological possibilities here soon. Perhaps we will be looking at a mentally disturbed and increasingly jealous Knox as the “alpha-male” of the group, with the other two eager, for their different reasons, to follow her into dark depravity.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 04/25/09 at 05:26 AM | #

Sorry, what is BDSM?

Posted by bucketoftea on 04/25/09 at 02:31 PM | #

BDSM is short for bondage and sado-masochism.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 04/25/09 at 02:38 PM | #

Magic mushrooms?

This may expain the madness the prolonged high the confusion and possible dazed sense of detachment after the fact

Posted by Tammy on 04/25/09 at 03:04 PM | #

I’ve been thinking lately about some sort of hallucinogen like mushrooms or plain old acid/lsd (yep it is still being taken) having been thrown into this horrid mix-I in no way mean their possible use is some sort of excuse for these murderers’ disgusting behavior-maybe just see it adding to/inflaming an already out of control situation…reality becomes terribly twisted once the “fun” heads towards the over-exaggeration of any issues the taker may have floating around in their skulls, it can cause some to see small things turn into unbearable self doubts..AK’s envy of MK perhaps magnified 100 times…just a thought

Posted by rach on 04/25/09 at 06:28 PM | #

Since one can’t believe Amanda or her boy friend, one has to rely on other’s testimony. Curatolo testified that the pair were in his sight from starting between 2130 and 2200 until 2300 to 2330.
Meredith attempted to call her parents at 2213. Ms. Formica testified Guede bumped into her close to 2230. Guede’s bloody fingerprints and DNA were found in Meredith’s room. There was evidence of a struggle and certainly an attack with sexual motivation, confirmed by DNA.  I have no doubts about his guilt.

The scenario regarding Amanda and Sollecito above doesn’t fit the testimony. If they had done something so heinous, why loiter in sight of the place? Why wasn’t Guede with them if this was some sort of staged sexually motivated attack?

To date,  there has been nothing credible to place Guede in the company of A&S;at the same time on the night of the murder.  In fact testimony puts them elsewhere at 10:13.

As to the theory of bringing a knife wrapped in paper, could it be that there wasn’t enough blood drawn with that knife to contaminate the purse?
Could the incident with that knife have occurred at an earlier time than the murder?

Were I on the jury, with evidence presented to date, I would not be convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt on the charge of murder.

Posted by Barry T on 04/25/09 at 08:51 PM | #

Hi Barry,

You’ve misinterpreted Antonio Curatolo’s testimony. He didn’t say that that Amanda Knox and Raffale Sollecito were in his sight from between 9.30pm-10pm to 11.00pm-11.30pm.

He claimed that he first saw them between 9.30pm and 10pm and that he saw them a couple more times after that. He didn’t give an exact time, so it’s possible he saw them some time after 10pm after Meredith had been killed.

Alternatively, he could have seen them just before they went to the cottage. Amanda Knox claimed that the she went to Piazza Grimana at around 9pm that evening.

Incidentally Alessandra Formica did not testify that Rudy Guede bumped into her at approximately 10.30pm. She actually testified that it wasn’t Rudy Guede who had bumped into her.

It’s simply not true that there is nothing credible to place Rudy Guede in the company of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito at the same time on the night of the murder. There are 23 separate pieces of forensic evidence that do this. 

Amanda Knox also admitted in her handwritten note to the police on 6 November that she was at the cottage when Meredith was killed. This admission has been corroborated by Rudy Guede.

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were watching the gate of the cottage and not the cottage itself from Piazza Grimana. Nara Capezzali testified that two or more people fled the cottage shortly after she heard the “blood curdling” scream. Meredith’s killers did not have any time to remove any incriminating evidence.

It seems that Knox and Sollecito were waiting to see if anyone had called the police and were waiting for the broken down car and breakdown truck to leave Via della Pergola before they went back to the cottage to clean up any incriminating evidence and tamper with the crime scene.

The prosecution do not have to prove someone is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, but beyond reasonable doubt.

Posted by The Machine on 04/25/09 at 10:03 PM | #

Here is a profile of a sociopath as described on Mcafee website.  It just fits.

Profile of the Sociopath
This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as “their right.”

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others’ feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet “gets by” by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Not concerned about wrecking others’ lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

Posted by BARBM on 04/25/09 at 10:57 PM | #

The Machine, I picked up the information regarding Formica from this website.

This is what Google abbreviated: “Trial Friday Afternoon: Testimony On The Apparent Staged Breakin ..... Allessandra Formica witnessed Rudy run away shortly after Meredith was stabbed.”

Yes, the standard is a reasonable doubt. And in my book, being in sight of a witness who swears he saw them is enough to raise more than a reasonable doubt.

Posted by Barry T on 04/26/09 at 12:45 AM | #

Thanks, BARBM. Sounds like AK to me.

Posted by wayra on 04/26/09 at 12:58 AM | #

“Yes, the standard is a reasonable doubt. And in my book, being in sight of a witness who swears he saw them is enough to raise more than a reasonable doubt. “

That is not what the witness said. Fortunately, the members of the jury will have been able to hear the full evidence and they are likely to have a different opinion.

What the witness did say, is that AK and RS were hanging around the piazza watching the gate to her own house. Is that not odd? And at least, his evidence shows that AK and RS have lied throughout about where they were that night. Is that not also very odd?

Posted by bobc on 04/27/09 at 09:58 PM | #

Barry, you claim that you picked up some “information” from this TJMK post as your justification for misquoting two witnesses and thus raising “more than a reasonable doubt” in your mind, presumably with a desire to influence others.

That post and those comments had nothing to do with the witnesses Formica or Curatolo who are both regarded as highly credible, as Machine and BobC both remarked. Please, if you have to misquote witnesses, could you do it from another website?! We stick to the truth on this site.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 04/27/09 at 11:12 PM | #

Dear Peter,

I have - based on TJMK - interpreted Formica like Barry has, and was provoked by the tone of your answer. Please read Stewarthome2000’s (very elaborated) report from the court in 21 March - this is my source for interpreting Formica as identifying G:

“The next witness was Alessandra Formica. ...
.. As they passed the basketball courts and started down the stairs and onto the road that leads down to Via della Pergola, she noticed a man in a dark puffy jacket, walking in a hurry with his head down, and he bumped into her. She focused on his face and could state the he was a “person of color” which essentially meant a black man.

Comment. It does seem that she most likely saw Guede leaving the crime scene, at between 10:00 and 10:30pm.” (The above is a quote from Stewarthome2000, 03/22 09.47)

My comment: The human mind functions holistic, i.e. our identification of ‘facts’ is done on a backdrop of a wider understanding (contrary to building up our understanding of the world from adding purified atoms of facts), so of course you are right in suspecting that statements and info are interpreted in the light of how convinced one is about the guilt of AK/RS. But I feel that some of the responses given here, assumes that everytime some of us has interpretations which differs from yours, we deliberately ‘misread facts’ with the intention to get AK and RS of the hook. Tis is - most likely - not so.

Best, Fiori

Posted by Fiori on 04/28/09 at 12:33 AM | #

Jinxes, Pete, have you never sliced a few mushrooms in your life?  It doesn’t take a dagger to do the job.  But that’s one wicked and fondly treasured knife more appropriately to be used for Sollecito’s challenge to Knox if she could prove herself worthy of banishing it.  By their smiles it looks to me like she gained his favor but he better not tell because perhaps it was his idea?  Rudy who??

I don’t believe there was any evidence of psilocybin mushrooms used but it is my opinion some powerful drugs were used by AK, RS & RG.  I believe at least two of the three fully intended to murder Meredith Kercher – as it was convenient for them to do so.

I always play it safe after I saw The Machine blast someone for taking some other person’s word as “fact.” 

SH2K is in my top 10 mix of those I would trust but we are all personally accountable and without seeing the true source I dare to claim facts based upon someone else’s post, even if they are one of our best.  Correct me if I am wrong but I believe Stuart said not to quote him.

Posted by Professor Snape on 04/28/09 at 02:06 AM | #

Hi Fiore. Actually in this post I had already gone with the idea that it was Guede the diners bumped into. We agree there.  My comment was about another post, allegedly on something we had posted on Curatolo, which didnt check out. Click on the link.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 04/28/09 at 04:35 AM | #

Dear Professor Snape, you know the case as well as anyone. So you do know there were early reports of a part of a mushroom lodged in Meredith’s throat? I will ask those who have read Micheli in the original if that was reported on there.

Hard drugs indeed may be a factor. Was Guede a dealer in those? Under Arnold’s scenario, he could have been at the house for that purpose.

It is often asked “did he know them?” but transactions with dealers are usually pretty clandestine. You dont normally hang out in public with your dealer - perhaps you never even see his face.

AK has conceded to having met Guede, and at least one witness puts them together, so it looks like he did know them. But how well he knew them…? We have still to find out.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 04/28/09 at 05:26 AM | #

Dear Mr Quennell,

I was not aware of any mushrooms lodged in Meredith’s throat.  I thought the fact was she “had eaten them.” so I was misinformed.

Of course it has crossed my mind many times the three evil individuals responsible for this tragedy may have poisoned Meredith including with those mushrooms.

Must one have earned their offical “Drug Dealer Scout badge” to supply some “buddies” with a private stash when the stakes are stacked in ones favor?

How well did they know each other? 

I’d say too much.

Posted by Professor Snape on 04/28/09 at 08:53 AM | #

Arnold’s mention of mushrooms which intrigued you intrigued me in turn, as I had not seen a mention in court reporting.

Here is the first mention I can find, in the Daily Mail for 29 November 2007:

“It also emerged that Meredith may have dined with her killers on the night she died.

The first autopsy showed a mushroom had been found in the student’s throat. Friends of Meredith have told police that she ate a slice of pizza and a piece of cake - but no mushrooms - at 6pm while watching a video on the night she died.”

<a href=“”>Nicki observed<a> just a few days ago that there is still quite a mystery about the mushroom or mushrooms. Including what kind!

Posted by Peter Quennell on 04/28/09 at 11:48 AM | #

Hmmm, more to come…  good work, Pete!  Thanks a metric ton! = :  )

Posted by Professor Snape on 04/28/09 at 06:26 PM | #

One reason I like this scenario is that it doesn’t have Amanda and Raffaele coming to the house with the intention of doing harm with the knives, just using them as intimidating objects.  It reminds me of the movie poster for “A Clockwork Orange” where the guy is holding a very large, intimidating knife. 

I never saw them as planning to kill her.In this version, AK only uses the knife as a weapon after Meredith screams.  It was probably almost a knee-jerk reaction with the nearest weapon - unfortunately a large knife.  I’ll bet she was as surprised as the others.

Posted by C3PO on 04/29/09 at 02:00 AM | #

The Machine, bobc, Peter Quennell

None of us are sitting in the juror’s box hearing every bit of testimony, but relying on the skills of reporters, whose remarks are probably distorted.

UK telegraph reported, “He [Antonio Curatolo] told the court that he saw them “around five times” between 9.30 pm and midnight on the night Miss Kercher died.”  From other summaries of his testimony, I understood that the pair moved from one place to the other on the plazza, engaging in animated conversations until he saw them leave between 11 pm and 11:30 pm. According to this site’s own post, “Antonella Morlacchia -She is a young woman who lives with her parents in Via Pinturicchio, the street behind the parking facility and houses that overlook it. The apartment is large and a portion of it looks down over Via della Pergola. She can see clearly from her window the house with its roof, terrace, window, doors, driveway, and so on.

She testified that around 10:00 pm she heard people arguing. It seemed to be a man and a woman; she looked outside her window and did not see anyone. But the arguing was definitely coming from Via della Pergola.”  Again, she is a prosecution witness and for what other reason than to place A&K;at the scene than to call her, even though it took her a year to step from the shadows. Their testimony tends to support one another.

Credible “key” witnesses place the pair outside the cottage during Meredith Kercher’s aborted cell phone 13 minutes after 10 PM.  None of them heard the scream. The car from Rome broke down just after 10:30 giving Guede the opening to run without being seen. What would impel him to be in such a hurry that he was so pre-occupied that he didn’t flush the toilet, other than being the one who thrust the killing slices into her neck? Given the action seen by Ms. Formica and Guede’s fleeing Italy, along with solid forensic evidence, he is the killer.

What sort of sex game do you play by hanging out in the square while the object is inside a nearby cottage?  Hide and seek?  I don’t know what happened that night, nor can I understand what motivated this pair to do as they did afterward.  I suspect that the truth, especially AK and RS hanging around looking at the gate,  is far more complex than the headline grabbing scenarios painted by the detectives from the start. 

I will keep an open mind and urge others to do the same.

Posted by Barry T on 05/01/09 at 02:57 AM | #

An Open Mind Has One Disadvantage, It Collects Dirt

Some people pre-judged Susan Boyle and decided it was not possible for anyone other than her to win.  One of the judges said, not so fast.  There are many more rounds and many other candidates yet to be heard.  OK, fair enough.

RSAK are not in the same situation.  They are the ONLY ones on trial for this murder. There is no one else waiting to be given an opportunity to be the chosen ones in this trial.

Only AK’s DNA was found on a knife handle with Meredith’s DNA on the tip of the knife.  Only RS and AK were seen looking out of the park in a very unscenic direction – toward the house where Meredith was murdered.  Only RS’s DNA was found on the bra clasp that had been cut from Meredith’s body.  There’s keeping an open mind, and then there’s playing a charade by acting as though there were many other credible possibilities yet to be brought forward.  I have nothing against AK and if she is found to be innocent, great.  But the lone wolf scenario is kaput.

As far as Rudy’s use of the toilet facilities, I don’t remember the testimony being that the toilet was unflushed, just that faeces was found in it.  I think his kebab story and listening to his IPod has been discounted by many since, but if you have ever used a set of earphones, you know you can hear what is going on outside. RG probably used the WC shortly after he got there and left some unflushed remnants of his efforts.

I for one do not believe the attack took very long.  I think it started with some testing her, like a shark butting up against a target to see what the danger potential might be. The rest step took as long as a partial sex act and some struggling, a scream, and a reflex reaction by AK to silence Meredith because AK’s cohorts didn’t seem top be able to do what they were supposed to do so she had to deal with the situation.

I confess, I am still hazy on this aborted cell phone call at 2213.  I find that very improbable.  At this point Meredith almost certainly was in danger for her life and so she decides to call home in England??  I don’t buy it even if there was such a phone call. 

So, I will try to keep an open mind; however, I must repeat, of the 7 billion people on this planet, only two are on trail.  There is no one waiting in the wings for the next round.

Arnold Layne

Posted by Arnold_Layne on 05/01/09 at 05:00 AM | #

Hey guys, Barry T might be on to something here. 

You know, if it we’re into such a stupid idea as fingering Rudy as the solo perp and “true killer” (as if…!) perhaps he might get pissed enough from hearing about the lies, he might be inclined to set the record straight for us - on the stand!

Posted by Professor Snape on 05/01/09 at 05:06 AM | #

The Lone Wolf Theory requires such extreme selection of facts and ignoring or twisting of so many others that wall-to-wall it fails the giggle test now.

Take a look at Miss Represented’s latest post Dancing in the Dark: Reflections on the Lone Wolf Theory which quotes Arnold and Finn and Brian of TJMK, and absolutely discounts a lone wolf, on   well-researched physical and psychological grounds.

Judge Micheli was enormously persuaded that three had done the cruel deed almost entirely by what he saw in the room and on Meredith’s body. He believed there was a scream, and then three people ran. One got 30 years and as Arnold says, the other two are on trial.

And Micheli said there was just one possible beneficiary of the clean-up: Knox. Someone emailed me this tonight: “That girl scares me, her cunning and manipulating personality is truly shocking… How many more lies can we expect when she testifies?”

That is the equal and opposite reaction the hard-line lone wolf theory is now engendering. It is very damaging to Knox herself. If she believes it will fly, she will get on the stand and try to propagate it herself - and in very short order, Knox will be toast.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 05/01/09 at 05:41 AM | #
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