Thursday, August 15, 2013

Trashing Of Italian Justice To Bend Trial Outcomes And How The Republic Pushes Back

Posted by The TJMK Main Posters

A big mob trial in Italy

1. Those Who See To Trash Italian Justice

Based on murder and incarceration rates there are not so many bad guys in Italy. But those who are bad can be very very bad.

Those with a vested interest in taking Italian prosecutors and police down a peg to affect trial outcomes can be bunched into seven groups. 

  • The three regional mafias;
  • A few defense lawyers and well-funded defendants;
  • Politicians shielding corruption;
  • In some instances the freemasons.
  • Those wanting investigations like MOF/Narducci to drop dead;
  • Muckraking magazines like Oggi;
  • Some anti-Italy foreigners.

None of them are simply pro-Amanda or pro-Raffele. All of them have hidden agendas, and all are under the constant eye of law enforcement.

Any of the above can join forces. Fighting institutions that make the public safe can make for strange bedfellows. Those attempting to trash justice can use any or all of three prongs in their attacks.

1) Assassinate the prosecutors and judges assigned to mafia cases. Over 100 in recent years have been assassinated.

2) Bend the laws in parliament. Bent laws excessively favoring defendants have greatly affected this case.

3) Flame the justice system and those who work for it. The pro-Knox pro-Sollecito campaign has definite mafia fingerprints.

Italian justice has adopted powerful if usually latent ways for law enforcers to push back and try to arrive at just outcomes.

If officers of the Italian courts are publicly accused of crimes in the media while a legal process is playing out, and the claims are malicious and untrue, this is not a civil matter (defamation, slander or libel).

It is a criminal matter (in the UK and US too) for which sentences can include long prison terms.

If the officers of the Italian court who are attacked are very senior and have an anti-mafia role they are REQUIRED BY LAW to request a criminal investigation by a chief prosecutor to take place.

They essentially have no further role themselves after that, except to provide true testimony in court.

A range of measures is then available to investigating chief prosecutors, up to and including invoking the powers of the Council of Magistrates and even the President of the Italian republic. 

2. Trashing Of Justice In Perugia Case

If we look closely - a lot closer than all the UK and US media look, and most of the Italian media - we can spot attempts to further the interests of all seven of these groups in the campaigns against justice for Meredith and especially against justice for the Monster of Florence victims.

  • The three mafias have their toe in the door in various ways including but not only the mafioso witness Luciano Aviello (on which more below), and the Narducci 22 including Spezi, and the editors of newspapers like Oggi who have long done their handiwork for them.

  • The defense forces and the well-funded, sneering, money-grubbing defendants Knox and Sollecito are very well-known to us here; their myriad dirty tricks go as far back as early 2008 and the list has not yet stopped growing.

  • The Berlusconi loyalist and fervid Knoxaholic Rocco Girlanda wrote to the President, asking that he order that the Perugia prosecutors be investigated; Girlanda also tried to cut the national police budget before he was voted out of office..

  • Both the judges in the annuled appeal were freemasons and our main poster Yummi described the furtive freemason fingers in the pie (some freemasons ally with mafias and feud strongly with catholics, which Perugia police and prosecutors are) in his well-researched posts here and here.

  • Those who wanted the MOF/Narducci investigations to drop dead used the ever-willing “useful idiot” Doug Preston to ridicule the investigations in a strident book and numerous media appearances; also they tried hard to take down Dr Mignini, their most recent nemesis though the Supreme Court has totally reversed that for reasons explained here.

  • The notorious editor of Oggi has a long history of sneering and essentially fact-free reporting, aimed at undermining the courts and the police; playing to his advantage, there is a smallish but terminally paranoid readership for such conspiracy myths in Italy.

  • And as for anti-Italy foreigners with their fingers in the pie, well, where to begin? Doug Preston? Michael Heavey? Nina Burleigh? Candace Dempsey? Greg Hampikian? Paul Ciolino? Judy Bachrach? David Anderson? Joel Simon?  Bruce Fischer, and his vast operation?

All seven groups were happily on a roll up to around the end of 2011, when Knox and Sollecito were released, and many (including Curt Knox’s PR guru David Marriott, Hampikian, and Fischer) prematurely declared that they had won total victory.

But it is astounding how much matters have reversed in the past year and a half. Take a look at the state of play for them as it is now.

3. Pushback In Meredith’s Case:

The Italian Supreme Court is nothing if not remorseless in its mandated pursuit of justice and the truth. We saw this the other day when a prison sentence was allowed to stand against the former Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi who had long thumbed his nose at the courts.

We also saw it in the convictions allowed to stand against the many CIA operatives and their Italian counterparts who kidnapped Abu Omar and flew him for torture to Egypt.  Though most of their sentences were permitted to be reduced, most are still left with a felony record for life - and the lead CIA operative is now a world-wide fugitive.

We can now see this same strong reaction against contempt of the courts in the Meredith Kercher case and the Monster of Florence case and the hairbrained “defense” campaigns nominally run for the perps in those two parallel cases.

Italian officials have various reasons to believe not only that Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox are surely guilty, just as Judge Massei described, but also that they and their American supporters are foolish pawns in some much bigger and even nastier games, and deeply in over their heads.

In its annullment of the Hellmann/Zanetti appeal and its instructions to the Florence Palace of Justice, Cassation reveals its own suspicion that some very unsavory elements may be attempting to take the Italian justice system down a peg and it wants fast decisive action to stop this. A high-stakes new trial described at bottom here is a first huge warning shot.

Knox has served three years, will be labeled a felon for life, faces an enormously tough new appeal against an excellent prosecutor, and has her name on a book which commits against Italian officials THE EXACT SAME CRIME she served three years for: false accusations of crimes. She is expected to be charged soon by Bergamo prosectors.

Sollecito in his own book committed some of the same crimes as Knox did in hers (did we mention criminal enterprise?!) plus another one (accusing the prosecution of wanting him to roll over on Amanda) which his own father has renounced on national TV. He is expected to be charged soon by Florence prosecutors.

Everybody involved in the writing and publishing of the two criminally defamatory and very self-serving blood-money books (illegal in Italy) could soon be about to take a fall, both in the Italian criminal courts and in the US civil courts. The foolish publishers and deal-makers included, of which Curt Knox himself is one.

If neither RS nor AK turn up for the new appeal in Florence later in September, they risk warrants being issued for their re-arrest. If they DO turn up they could well turn on one another, and their books will help the prosecution and hamper the defenses no-end - with those mad claims, how can they possibly take the witness stand?

Criminal defamation charges are still pending against Amanda Knox and against both of her two biological parents. Corruption charges are pending against Francesco Sollecito and Raffaele’s sister Vanessa for attempting to use political means to up-end the Perugia prosecutors.

Judge Hellmann has been eased out ignominiously, and Judge Zanetti demoted. Conceivably both may face charges, along with Conti & Vecchiotti and maybe Hampikian. And all the defense lawyers are in a ton of trouble for helping AK and RS to write their books, Giulia Bongiorno especially. The former MP Rocco Girlanda is of course long gone. 

Many of the Knox defense forces have exited or ended up as being of no consequence: Frank Sfarzo (now on the run from the law in the US and Italy); Halkidis and Hampikian (see the Machine’‘s posts below), the hapless two Moores, the proven phoney Bruce Fischer, and so on and on. 

And US officialdom, not least the State Department and the US Embassy in Rome, still show not the slightest interest in intervening. Any judge is expected to approve extradition of Knox if her refusal to face trial and prison is sustained in face of a final guilty verdict. 

4. Pushback In Monster of Florence Case

Yummi mentioned some pushback in the post linked to above, including the trouble rained down on the heads of the prosecutor and judge who put on trial Giuttari and Mignin, whose convictions were scathingly reversed by a very angry Supreme Court. 

The Narducci case was put back on track by the Supreme Court and a prison sentence seems a sure thing for Mario Spezi and up to 2 dozen others. A prison sentence might be incurred by the delusional weakling and serial defamer Doug Preston.

The “theory” of the MOF case Dr Mignini has good reason to hold is that the murders were not those of one single serial killer. This perception of a shadowy self-protecting group is absolutely mainstream in Italy, and is reflected in the excellent Guittari book on the case (Il Mostro) which could soon with good reason (it tells the truth) push the silly Preston MOF book off the US and UK bookshelves.

That theory is espoused by all the current prosecutors in Florence.

The one media outlet which never fails to take an anti-prosecution stance, Oggi, Is being investigated and could be put on trial for publishing Knox’s false charges against the Perugia and national police and prosecutors and may have problems hanging in there.

Dr Mignini looks set to be promoted to becoming the next attorney general of Umbria, the region of which Perugia is the capital. And the hold of the freemasons and the mafias over Italian justice is not getting any stronger, just as most Italians prefer.

5. Pushback In Related Cases

Former Sollecito witness Luciano Aviello could be the direct cause of a lot of people ending up in jail.

His trial for perjury and contempt of court is happening now in Florence. His trial has been fast-forwarded as a direct result of the Supreme Court declaring that getting to the bottom of his erratic day in court in 2011 with too-familiar mafia-type allegations must be a top priority.  His forthcoming defense is expected to be explosive.

We have posted extensively on Aviello since he first surfaced. A mafioso since his teens in Naples, now aged about 40, he has spent most of his adult years in prison. (He is back there again right now - for killing a dog and extortion.)

As police and prosecutors all know, Aviello has a very long record of making things up to try to give himself some breaks and to keep in with the mafia. He has been repeatedly convicted for perjury.

He was the witness summoned by a hapless Giulia Bongiorno to try to arrive at an explanation that fits with the prevailing conclusion of the Supreme Court that THREE people had attacked Meredith on the night.

What Aviello came up with on the stand was that his own missing brother and one other habitual criminal had unintentionally committed the murder. They were trying to steal some artworks, but they got the address of the house wrong.

Raffaele Sollecito was so thrilled at this (palpably false) testimony by Aviello that he says in his book that he sent Aviello an embroidered handkerchief, perhaps because Aviello has urges toward a sex change operation.

On the witness stand in mid 2011 Aviello really roasted the police and prosecution in mafia-type terms for failing to come down on his side and follow up on his allegations (actually they had already followed up, but found nothing).

Then two fellow inmates at his prison near Genoa testified for the prosecution that he had told them that the Sollecitos had offered or paid large bribes for any false testimony helpful to their boy getting sprung.

Extraordinarily, Judge Hellmann brushed all of this under the rug, and hurried on to other matters less embarrassing to the Sollecitos and Bongiorno.  This REALLY caught Cassation’s attention as there have been strong suspicions in Perugia and Rome that Hellmann and/or Zanetti were in the pocket of one of the families.

Why did the unqualified Judge Hellmann replace the excellent Judge Chiari, suddenly and inexplicably decided upon by Chief Judge Di Nunzio? Why are seemingly all of the lead players bending things to the Knox-Sollecito side freemasons?

Were Hellmann and Zanetti and Aviello and Aviello’s fellow inmates among those who received some sort of inducement to bend RS’s way? What was Giulia Bongiorno’s precise role in all this?

Directly, Aviello could be in a position to bring down both families, both defense teams, and both appeal judges. He could even make a guilty verdict for RS and AK a sure thing.

Criminal enterprise indeed. We will continue reporting. Oh and make sure to watch your back, Luciano.


Excellent post and the perfect summarisation of all of the dodgy characters involved in this sad case.

Those of them with any so-called professional standing must be desperate to flush their careers down the toilet.  They will look back and rue the day they ever heard of Knox.

Posted by MHILL4 on 08/15/13 at 06:51 PM | #

Yes to all your points. There was and still is a systematic attempt to undermine justice. I believe that lots of money was used to pervert justice.

I would classify contempt of courts into only these types:

1. singular, isolated incidents in which no money changed hands;

2. persistent and systematic attempts to manipulate justice.

I believe there are too many pointers that point to the fact the AK and RS PR campaign belongs to the second class.

The campaign by papa and son has always stayed below the radar but the effect was perhaps equally (or even greater) powerful.

Posted by chami on 08/15/13 at 07:41 PM | #

@MHILL4, I agree with “all of the dodgy characters involved”. What a network of intrigue born of private motivations, conscienceless or desperate people and rumors of payoffs.

Maybe Aviello can wave his embroidered handkerchief after he drenches it in perfume to show the colors he carries into legal battle, and where the stench is coming from. I hope the court where he’s now being tried can ferret out some gram of truth from this melodramatic liar.

Speaking of Sollecito stringpulling, this week comes a silly Ground Report interview where Vanessa Sollecito bemoans her plight. She claims her family’s ruin is a result of the police and Italian justice system, how hypocritical.

And Knox and Raffaele brandish many falsehoods in their books which may be a case of them living by the sword to die by the sword. Two books with every word now on record, often full proof their earlier words were lies. They are as believable as Aviello and maybe dirtier. He is Bongiorno’s big mistake. She was foolish to make her client lie down with dogs. Sure enough he got fleas.

There are profound implications to this Byzantine case. Mafia, freemasonry, foreign manipulation, wealth fighting against truth. Italy is waging a valiant fight for justice on many fronts.

Posted by Hopeful on 08/15/13 at 07:45 PM | #

Thanks Peter. Blimey, what a web of intrigue and corruption. I didn’t know the half of it…

Posted by Odysseus on 08/15/13 at 09:26 PM | #

Please someone correct me if I am wrong but wasn’t one of Amanda Knox’s defence witnesses serving a jail term for killing a small child with a shovel?

Also can anyone explain to me why Sollecito’s advocate (Bongiorno)[sic] seem to be untouchable?

On the same footing is it a usual thing to call the shots on a criminal trial so as to only try it on certain days due to the accused’s advocate being pregnant?

Posted by DF2K on 08/15/13 at 11:38 PM | #

@ DF2K

Hereis the link to Alessi the child killer.

I think that Bongiorno is not as untouchable as she thinks she is. She was high up in the government at the time of the trial. Hellmann seems to have given her quite a few breaks.

Posted by Miriam on 08/16/13 at 12:45 AM | #

Meredith did not deserve this. It demeans her life and it demeans her death - over and over again.

Posted by thundering on 08/16/13 at 02:10 AM | #

So many faces, but not enough pie to go around.  I can’t believe how many faces…

I disagree most humbly with Thundering, because so much has come forth…  and I believe The Voice of Meredith is therein.

Posted by Bettina on 08/16/13 at 03:29 AM | #

Thanks Pete, this is very encouraging.

I hope Aviello finds it in himself to honour Meredith by revealing what he knows, so she can finally rest in peace.

Posted by Spencer on 08/16/13 at 03:03 PM | #

These contempt of court trials can be announced suddenly at any time. Italian justice officials are not required to give any warning to those perps who foolishly assault the system to try to get public opinion to lean on the court.

It is up to the assaulters’ own lawyers to do that and Italian officials are quite happy to see the assaulters digging themselves in deeper and deeper as Sollecito has been doing.

So while we can make a number of fair guesses as to who might be next we have nothing hard to post unless and until a court date is set.

The expected trials for the AK and RS books are expected to impact on all the main lawyers, the families, the publishers, the promoters, anybody who spoke out too much or twisted the truth against the court.

The Sforza trial could impact his (very few) allies in Italy but more especially Curt Knox, David Marriott and Bruce Fischer who gave him an immense amount of help, channeling funds to him and repeating his paranoid fantasies all over the web. Bruce Fischer has run such a massive over-the-top campaign that he could incur a trial of his own.

Other than these several, we are trying to be careful to give no heads-ups to any of the defamers who may be hit with a trial, though we all know who they could be.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 08/16/13 at 05:05 PM | #

I am very curious to know what Knox makes of all this. Her own best interests are not the same as her dad’s or her lawyers’ or Sforza’s or Fischer’s, or Sollecito’s for that matter.

One way Aks legal interests differ from her dad’s:

If she didnt have much of a hand in writing her own book as I suspect (it just isnt the real “her”, she is dopier and more sharp-elbowed than that) she should say so right now, and explain who did write it.

That might be one legal action against her that she might be able to have toned down though she may have a month or less from today to act before the charges are laid and trial set.

Bear in mind that anyone on the Ship of Fools can be named as witnesses of interest and called to testify as to their knowledge of the doings of any of the others.

It looks to me like Amanda Knox and Curt Knox and Sollecito and his dad could potentially be named as witnesses by the prosecution or even defense at every trial.

Will they be thrilled to help take Sforza down? I do look forward to seeing the trouble-maker Doug Preston being grilled..

Posted by Peter Quennell on 08/16/13 at 05:16 PM | #

How does it work, though, if they all just refuse to go to the trial? Frank Sforza excepted.

Posted by thundering on 08/16/13 at 05:41 PM | #

These are considered serious crimes. One doesnt want a felony conviction on record for life. Already Knox will have trouble traveling and getting jobs. So a vigorous personal defense is best. Lawyers will all want them to be there.

However Italian trials can proceed in their absence as they often have proceeded sans perps in the past. If found guilty they would be invited to come back and extradition requested and/or via Interpol a worldwide arrest warrant could be issued.

Plus of course based on a guilty verdict in Italy American civil cases can proceed. Say the two book publishers are found guilty in Italy, they could then be sued with huge chance of success in New York.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 08/16/13 at 06:13 PM | #

The huge new Florence courthouse sure is going to be a busy place. Accused perps will be wandering all over the place, bumping into one another or trying to hide or at least not turn their backs.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 08/16/13 at 06:29 PM | #

Hi Peter

As to Knox reading any of this web site? I would suggest she doesn’t even know of it’s existence, or if she does then it is being kept from her by her controllers. Those being anybody with a financial stake in her life plus those who are blind enough to believe in her innocence. I’ll bet anything you like that Edda knows the truth.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 08/17/13 at 08:46 PM | #

@ Pete:
Ok - then a case of watch this space.
What a tangled web we weave. This one really is tangled. Reminds me of an overgrown garden full of thorny briars all twisted and tangled. It will take the system some time to untangle it all but I suppose they will get there in the end!

Posted by thundering on 08/18/13 at 02:55 AM | #

Could we clarify who is currently facing charges? I’m a little confused at this point, given the plethora of additional trials.

- Francesco Sforza on Nov. 6

- the Sollecitos (Dr. Sollecito and Vanessa Sollecito) for corruption - trial has been postponed several times and moved

- Knox and Edda Mellas (possibly Curt Knox as well?) for defamation - not sure if that trial has even started

- Raffaele (and possibly members of his defense and editorial team) for defamation resulting from his book - I believe charges have been filed, but I’m not 100% certain.

If I understand this correctly, Knox hasn’t had additional defamation charges filed against her after the book was published, but it’s possible it may happen in the future.  The same applies to some of the more vocal FOA members.

Does this sound right?

Posted by Vivianna on 08/18/13 at 03:54 AM | #

Hi Vivianna

Partially correct. Missing is myriad associated trials on the MOF front. Also the Aviello one, the final point of this post. That and Sforza’s trial are very key as they may flip on all the others.

Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox should both be charged soon for the books unless they hurry to withdraw them, and anyway what is in the books will factor in to the repeat appeal.

That is really merely round one. This could all take years to play out. Remember, they have committed dozens of crimes, lied to the world about many good people, and sought to make many millions of dollars.

All without an ounce of sincere concern for the real victim here and her circle.

I have zero pity for most of them, maybe just a little for a few who were warm-hearted and naive and unwittingly used for bad ends - many got financially screwed, and some now know it and speak up..

By the way, we have news that the defenses are very despondent. Are you at all surprised? They should have avoided crimes themselves, and restrained those being perpetrated by others.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 08/18/13 at 05:40 AM | #

Hi Grahame

Certainly Knox knows about PMF and TJMK though only a few of their side read here (obsessively) and the rest are off in their bubble with their fingers in their ears. They dont seem to have a clue as to what is really going on, though as our posts show its not hard to pick emerging facts up. 

Knox is known in Perugia to have been close to spilling the beans early on and took quite a shine to Mignini until her lawyers encouraged her to hate (she describes that weird process in the book). Then she was in her own bubble in Capanne until she got sprung and met the real world. I do believe she is scared though not of physical attack; anyone who yells out she is a murderer may make her lose it then and there.

Stupid management by Curt Knox going back to 2008 when he should have dumped Marriott (as the Perugia lawyers wanted) and moved to beg for lesser charges for Knox.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 08/18/13 at 05:51 AM | #

i would like to know more about Ted Simon’s role in the dirty tricks (if any) after his dramatic conversion.

He must surely be at least aware of it all and how does this sit with him managing his own reputation?

Posted by thundering on 08/18/13 at 09:08 AM | #

Peter Quennell on 08/17/13 at 10:51

I do not think so. I belive most of them read here very regularly (sometimes I think I need to visit them to hear something about tjmk site: the alternative view) but I have been always disappointed. Sometimes I think they are intellectually handicapped but I am mostly wrong. Most of them are, honestly speaking, cannot argue or understand logic. However, they have semiinfinite energy and they have no shortage of time- they can keep on writing on the same drivel.

Of course I also suspect that several of them know the truth but they are in denial mode. The reason is not clear- perhaps it can be called faith, or obligation or even patriotism- take your pick! Why they have decided to board the wrong bus is not clear to me.

I am right now in China but I took sometime to write a few lines. Perhaps you can see that most of the visitors are from FoA and the regular members have made a point to touch this site regularly.

I even think that they respect our integrity but does not express it just for the thought of becoming an outcast. Some of course really do not understand.

But the real target is the PR machine of AK and I dare say that the machine (she has set up) is far more vicious than her and that is the only target here. We must not lose sight of that! Justice may follow a convoluted path but it has its way.

Posted by chami on 08/18/13 at 12:58 PM | #

Still, I cannot imagine what defense strategy AK and RS will choose for Florence.  If RS continues saying he is innocent, he risks again 25 or 30 years, no? I cannot believe he is so stupid.

If RS tells the “truth”, then AK is in the same boat and will have to give in too. Even if it will take 10 years till she is extradited, is she really so bullheaded, that she will risk her final chance?

Posted by AgentJasonBrowning on 08/18/13 at 03:21 PM | #

Hello I am Torsten Frahm in Germany who posts a lot on Twitter and Facebook. I posted a nasty rant here earlier, but it made me look too ridiculous, so I asked that it be taken down. I do apologise.

Posted by GermanMachine on 08/18/13 at 05:45 PM | #


With respect and goodwill, I think you may have serious mental issues. Without rancour, I would suggest that you go and see a doctor. Reading your post reminded me of Anders Behring Breivik, the Norwegian mass murderer.

‘A declaration of war’?.....grow up!

Posted by starsdad on 08/18/13 at 07:01 PM | #

@chami, Hello to you in China. I was there summer of 1990 with ELIC (English Language Institute China). After Beijing sightseeing we went to Inner Mongolia, stayed at Baotou to teach English to Chinese secondary school teachers. The campus at Institute for Iron and Steel Technology housed us. The Yellow River wasn’t too far away.

Posted by Hopeful on 08/18/13 at 07:06 PM | #

Hi Torsten,

Thanks for apologising. I hope you keep an open mind about the case and question everything you hear and read about it because there’s still so much disinformation being propagated in the media.

Posted by The Machine on 08/18/13 at 09:01 PM | #

Hi Peter
Speaking of them being “In their bubble with their fingers in their collective ears” Just sometimes I go to Ground Report to see what, if anything, there is that’s new. Truth to tell it’s really sad the level of intelligence particularly someone called Denver who is a staunch supporter. Her/his level of intelligence which is representative of the whole site consists of writing (And I quote) “WA WA WA” to indicate displeasure at some negative comment or other. There would seem to be quite a few negatives as well. Of course Denver and company try their level best to discredit same but to no avail. Truth will out after all. Ground Report per se has about as much credibility as the web site ‘Jody is Innocent.’ Who these people are is a sad commentary on the stupidity of sites such as ‘Ground Report aka Knox’ and the Jody Arias site anyway.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 08/19/13 at 01:28 AM | #

What I miss in the Italian Justice System is fast accuracy. At best you could call it slow accuracy, but still then there’s given a lot of room for Mutant Wa Wa Wa and pregnant Bongiornos.
There’s given lots of room for doing harm to the Kerchers and while we TJMK readers know the details, a Hellman comes along. Unbelievable!

Posted by Helder Licht on 08/19/13 at 01:03 PM | #

@Helder Licht

I must agree - it’s getting there but it does seem awfully slow and convoluted, and painful for the Kerchers. Still, it’s a time-honoured system and has developed organically with all its checks and balances. While a faster verdict may have been reached in other countries might there have been a greater risk of it being incorrect?

Posted by Odysseus on 08/19/13 at 01:47 PM | #

I would have convicted them by damaging telephone evidence, in let’s say a week. No room for all dirty tricks. Now it’s monstreous.

Posted by Helder Licht on 08/19/13 at 02:12 PM | #

I know how you feel. Frankly I would have convicted them for being a patently obnoxious and disgraceful couple who spoil the landscape and make the flesh creep. No appeal.

Posted by Odysseus on 08/19/13 at 02:57 PM | #

I am concerned that in our collective quest to be ultra-fair, tolerant, and respectful of an individual’s rights and needs - all of which are laudable- an Achilles Heel has opened up that quite simply gives the psychopathic narcissist, or malignant narcissist, just too much room ...for their manipulative game-playing.
These people zoom in on one’s instinct to have compassion, and to want to trust and co-operate. And then they laugh, as they ruthlessly use and deceive.

How can we ‘firm up’ as a society, regarding this, without losing the good values we wish to live by?
I am impressed by a number of people in the Italian judiciary, who would seem to be doing their dignified best…and I wish them well.
Attempting to influence or pervert the course of justice is regarded as a serious crime for very good reasons.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 08/19/13 at 10:06 PM | #

*In other words, I think there tends, nowadays, to be too much sympathy for the bully…and too much indifference towards the true victim, and their genuine suffering….and too much castigation or aggression towards the person who dares to stand up to the bully.
And I don’t know what we can do about it. But I know it’s wrong. And this site tries to correct it.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 08/20/13 at 10:50 AM | #


“And I don’t know what we can do about it. But I know it’s wrong. And this site tries to correct it.”

I try tp instill in my students the practice of always being “adult-adult” in their relationships with other adults, and to recognise (and hopefully deal with) “Adult-Child/Child-Adult” relationships between adults, which are potentially so damaging. It is tough when folk are unable to deal with their anger…........

I have to say though, that the difference between how arguments are put forward on this site compared to others I have seen is staggering. Here I generally see adult-adult. On many others it is bullying/controlling to the extent they are often unreadable.

Posted by Miles on 08/20/13 at 01:50 PM | #

Yes, and very well said.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 08/20/13 at 02:31 PM | #


Sorry, rather serious mistake there. Not “adult-child, child-adult”, I meant parent-child, child-parent…..... Somewhat more destructive in adult-adult relationships.

Posted by Miles on 08/20/13 at 11:06 PM | #

Thanks Miles, I did assume that was what you were referring to….we need to ‘own’, as they say, both the child and the parent in ourselves, to become integrated as an adult…

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 08/20/13 at 11:11 PM | #

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