Wednesday, November 09, 2011

Why The Analysis Of Evidence, Open Questions, Scenarios, And Bigger Issues Won’t Go Away At All Soon

Posted by Peter Quennell

[Above: Raffaele Sollecito, facing Meredith, giving his weak best shot at explaining what “really” happened]

Poor David Marriott. He seems to be embarked on some mind-numbing attempts to try to correct a real mess that is very largely of his own making.

The campaign’s demonization of Italy and the police and prosecution and objective media and internet supporters of justice seem to have painted Knox and Sollecito into an impossible corner. Media sources are telling us that a large minority in the US and UK and a large majority in Italy believe RS and AK still have explaining to do, and that the open questions are far from going away. And that new people have begun digging. 

Innocent people when freed from prison are expected to be putting themselves out there brightly on TV almost daily, showing us how seriously attractive and compelling they are, and putting to bed the many open questions. And their online buddies would be presumed to be equally warm and compelling.

Instead, Sollecito’s major appearance on Italian TV last week consisted of a narcissistic hour-long whine which answered none of the tough questions and seems to have won him no new converts. And Knox is giving the appearance of remaining very tightly chaperoned and deeply tongue-tied while the weeks before she actually speaks out turn into months.

Both families seem extremely jittery about what bad things could happen if the two ever connect up again. Perhaps especially if unscrupulous media arranged for the conversations to be bugged. And their online supporters seem as over-the-top as ever - perhaps more-so if they feel they deserve some quality time with Amanda. 

The hard evidence and open questions and scenarios we continue to explore on PMF and TJMK are not driven by a hatred of AK or RS.

No very popular websites flourish for years based mostly or entirely on hate. Here on TJMK we very rarely post exclusively on either AK or RS and we post far more often on the much more exceptional person that was Meredith. All of us think the slamming of Italy has been unfair, and the huge majority of our posts concentrate directly on the hard evidence and scenarios and open questions and wider contexts affecting the case.

Our takes on possible motive and psychology continue to presume that Judge Micheli essentially got it right (and Judge Massei who may have blinked rather less-so): that what culminated in Meredith’s cruel death started out as a vicious hazing, for any of various possible reasons: jealousy and competitive rage, fear of being displaced as a waitress, an argument over drug-dealing in the house, use of skunk cannabis or cocaine which causes psychotic episodes, an argument over theft of money, an assumed Halloween night snub, untreated mental illness, and so on. And that the forced-sex aspects were most likely to pour on the humiliation and to aid the cover-up.

Lawyers posting on PMF and TJMK and some others who don’t but talk with us are suspecting that Judge Hellman, in his blunt refusal to allow the prosecution any DNA re-testing, in his jury briefing, in his garbled announcement of the appeal verdict, and in his contradictory comments in the next several days, may have made enough legal mistakes for a 75% probability that the Supreme Court will insist on a major revisiting of the case or even a complete new appeal trial.

We now have on PMF and TJMK over 1,000 pages of translation which is absolutely vital for people in the US and UK to understand the case as Italians have always seen it. That includes both the Micheli and Massei sentencing reports. The massive hard evidence and massive suspicious behavior and highly contradictory alibis and literally hundreds of open questions are described under the various headings in our right column.

And the many scenarios in which prosecutors, judges and our own posters have sought to create a complete narrative to explain what resulted in Meredith’s death are all set out here. In the last few days, many of our members have been doing a terrific job in the comments, filling out some of those scenarios.

Yesterday one of our commenters, Martin, added a post-liberation scenario as his take on what is really going on, and he okayed us to post it here.

I’d like to take a brief moment to parse the present situation and the reports that come to us from various sources, and to consider the message behind the headlines and beneath the surface. We have photos and abundant reports of the Defendant with her latest victim in Seattle. Both her absence of moral restraint and her familiar pattern of seeking immediate gratification remain unchanged. The familiar pattern is aptly described by Sollecito:

“She lived her life like a dream, she was detached from reality, she couldn’t distinguish dream from reality. Her life seemed to be pure pleasure; she had a contact with reality that was almost non-existent.”

The message that she sends to Sollecito is “stay away”; or, if you do come for a brief visit, I am not interested in anything romantic because I already am with someone else; so sorry. There briefly was the possibility that she would fake the continuing romance with Sollecito for the purpose of a TV appearance and profit, but those offers never came in.

And why is she so eager to get out of the houses of her parents? While they attained some form of victory, it is pyrrhic in nature. Though they have the admiration of many, the bankers who have loaned them money for their PR firm, their legal dream team, and for other purposes, are not all smiles; they are, after all, businessmen who have made loans and now want a return on their loans, and they want it now. Pressures have been rising within the households, money is low, and offers are not pouring in as expected. She wants out of the houses.

So, what of her new lover? Beyond sending a message to Sollecito and escaping from the unpleasantness of her home life, she is with him to ride out the pending legal appeal and quite possibly is considering having a child with him, although she will tire of him quickly; if he has a friend on the face of the earth, he should advise him to get away, and fast. She may want a child because in her mind she may think it would make it more difficult for the US to agree to deport her if she has a child, in the event that her conviction is reinstated. However, if the present verdict of not guilty is sustained on appeal, the present boyfriend will become history.

There are yet more reasons for these events. Even among some of her supporters, it’s beginning to sink in that she does not have clean hands. She has kept a low profile among the Cult in Seattle. Among the hundreds of supporters who dug deep into threadbare pockets and worked hard for her, at least a few of them have begun to ask questions. Why hasn’t she come clean with them as to exactly what was her role, how did things actually unfold, what really happened?

And some of them have begun to figure things out and now are feeling taken advantage of. Watch out for the wrath of a man or woman who discovers that their bona fides have been taken for a chump. There are a few of these people out there, and if they ever hook up with one another, or even decide to come out singly, there will be serious trouble. Foxy already knows that she must do what she can to avoid this eventuality, and so she is doing all that she can to stay away from them, to lay low, and to pretend she’s very, very busy. And this means that the best option for her is the safety of a familiar romance, back to school and, I think, the real possibility of surreptitious planning for a child.

There is a reasonably good chance that her conviction will be reinstated on appeal, and she knows it. The evidence remains, hard blood evidence, and overwhelming circumstantial evidence remains, evidence proved to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt.  And now the DNA may be able to be retested with newer and more accurate methods. If the criminal conviction is not reinstated, there may be civil claims with a good chance of succeeding, in one forum or another, that will drag on for years. There is no statute of limits on murder, and, there may be no double jeopardy in Italy.

The sharp sting of the photos of Foxy with her newest Boy Toy alone won’t push Sollecito to do it, but there are purely practical reasons that may make it compelling for him to confess. At some point, Sollecito may find it in his best interest to come clean and to cut a deal with prosecutors to spend 3 or 4 more years in prison so as to be able to pay his penalty and to lead a clean life thereafter. If he doesn’t confess, this will drag him under for the rest of his life. Italy is a much smaller fishbowl than the US, and Italians overwhelmingly feel there is culpability; he may come to see that he will be unable to escape without a just penalty.

If Sollecito confesses, which logic and evidence suggest that he and his family would be wise to consider, he will be seen as an honorable man and will be able to hold his head high.


She’ll be pregnant by Christmas - mark my words…

Posted by Melanie on 11/09/11 at 04:32 PM | #

So, Melanie, does that mean that we can expect that a list of possible fathers will be leaked and then the prosecution will be blamed a-la this scenario?

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/09/11 at 04:42 PM | #

No it will be an immaculate conception:0)

Posted by Melanie on 11/09/11 at 04:52 PM | #

Melanie, I doubt very much.  She would not sacrifice “her pleasures” (not my words) for anything so down to earth! A pregnancy will be a cause for celebration for millions of men and women across the world, but she is not one of them.

She did had some option for studying while in the prison, right?  Did she use the opportunity?

If I understand her at all, she has a strong contempt for a family life- but I am not very sure of using a child as an insurance.

Posted by chami on 11/09/11 at 05:33 PM | #

I notice that some of the blogs coming out of Seattle particularly by someone called Tony Del Balzo are full of hate and vitriol towards Meredith and insist that it was her fault all along thereby blaming the victim. The shrill screams from this individual just might backfire.

On the other hand Patrick King in Boston seems to have modified his stance somewhat by calling for a review of Guede’s sentence. This, given the countries financial woes, has no chance of course.  Still the threat alone might shake loose some statement by Guede. It would not surprise me that eventually Guede will say something anyway and there is no statute of limitations on murder. Mind you Patrick King did make death threats to someone who has stood by the truth of guilty but who’s name escapes me just now.

As for Knox her guilt will fix itself of that there can be no doubt. She must be terrified and given her history fear can give rise to drug taking. Seattle is no better than anywhere else regarding the availability of drugs. Also it must be very difficult since the Knox Mellas clan are not making any money out of this at all. In fact as time has gone forward the publics interest in this case has gone really cold. After all what with Joe Paterno and Cain molestation, ongoing interest in Amanda Knox is just about dead and any life left in the story has diminished to almost non existent.

Knox for obvious reasons will not be giving any interviews. I just bet the supposed 60 Minutes interview has been shelved, but desperation makes strange bedfellows. Speaking of which, her new boyfriend better sleep with one eye open. A guitar student? Given her need for money this is a joke, right, because as sure as hell she won’t be getting any job outside of Macdonalds so she’d be better with a good lawyer. Too bad Steve Moore wasn’t available.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 11/09/11 at 06:32 PM | #

Hi chami. We understand that Knox was studying languages in prison by way of some correspondence course. She also had opportunities to write and act and so on, and would have been taught a trade prior to her release on parole. She had her books and guitar and a computer.

I dont ever remember her sounding maternal but I think her liking for Italy was quite genuine and now she may regret being separated from that great country for life rather than as she herself suggested settling down and living there. Nicer climate than Seattle.

She may not be hard-wired for contrition but there are suggestions for example in her Berlin diary that she can accept when she makes some mistakes and learn from that to apologise and try to do differently. Here though she may be thoroughly boxed in.

By herself or by others? It’s your call.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/09/11 at 06:52 PM | #

Thanks for this one Peter, all my recent thoughts are so nicely summed up in this overview of the aftermath.  I’m quite sure the private coversations that have gone on in the Knox home since Amanda got back have been pretty interesting.  I think the pressure of the inquiry has a lot to do with why Amanda has moved out so soon.  I’m still floored by Kurt’s comments about how he’d never fully discussed the night of the murder with her.  That told me everything about the discomfort that family is in for. 

Surely in the aftermath all the (esp. male) supporters want a piece of her time and attention. Another good reason to move in with a boyfriend real fast and look busy busy.

Posted by JenE on 11/09/11 at 07:15 PM | #

Co-incidentally, but the timing is interesting…
H9” at has posted a facebook post “grab” from a FOA facebook page. The post is from the Pro Knox campaign and says…


Amanda Knox and Raffaelle Sollecito

Hey guys a report from the front lines. We are being asked by Amanda’s family to scale back on chatter and posting about Amanda specifically. I think Raff wants the same, ignoring stuff sends it to the bottom.

It’s called “Starving the Beast.” All our posting is driving up her importance on the Buzz Meter and they want it to disappear as soon as possible. So please stop posting and commenting on articles about her.

We can continue to trash talk Mignini and the crew as much as we want. YEA!!!

And a great big thank you from the family for all of YOUR support and help!


As I say on a part of Facebook…That may have been posted because many [an increasing number, imho] of Facebook posters have made it clear that they are not friends of Knox or Sollecito and feel the pair were involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

Posted by nopassingby on 11/09/11 at 08:00 PM | #


It is also likely that (i) Amanda’s family want to be dissociated from the general trashing so that they can claim, if need be, that this is the voice of the people and they have actually asked them to stop this; (ii) Amanda’s family is insincere in the claim as Mignini, Raffaelle and Amanda are so intricately interwoven that it is impossible to separate them fully; (iii) Amanda’s family shows their direct tacit approval for the all the action of the “FOA crew” by extending their big thank you.

Well, Amanda’s time is up.  It is more than one month and the fact that she has not come clean to the supporters (actually she has to do this for the guilters) tells a lot.  A big thank you to the supporters is no more enough.

Actually she need not say anything to anyone.  But then to expect that the controversy will simply go away is nothing but wishful thinking. But then she is not a normal person and we should not expect things from her that we expect from normal “normal” persons.

Posted by chami on 11/09/11 at 09:14 PM | #

The transmission started out with the host Salvo Sottile saying ” Tonight a particular evening here at Quarto Grado, with no audience or experts.” 

Any ideas? Can it be that his lawyers set up the terms? That would also answer all the soft questions.

After all can’t catch somebody shaking their heads, like General Garofano, when Sollecito’s lawyer and Guede’s lawyers were going on about police procedure.

Posted by Miriam on 11/09/11 at 10:06 PM | #

It’s interesting that AK’s best friend Madison has dropped from view. Anyone any insights in that? I read the extract of the RS interview and he came across, to me, as fairly vague in general.

Another excellent posting Peter. Thank you all for continuing, analysing; yet avoiding nasty hate speech.

Posted by TruthWillOut on 11/09/11 at 11:38 PM | #

Thanks Miriam. The Sollecito interview in Italian with no English subtitles or voice-over is posted on PMF and it is also available for download in widescreen format here:

The Italian PMF poster Popper did a good summary translation which we will repost tonight over here. There are several caustic opinions on it in previous threads below.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/09/11 at 11:45 PM | #

Hi Peter.  Did you watch it? I thought Sollecito came off cold and emotionless. Kind of immature for a 27 year old. Good thing his father is keeping him on a hight leash. But then again he did spend 4 years in prison, so I guess I should cut him some slack.

Posted by Miriam on 11/09/11 at 11:53 PM | #

I misread I thought it said with English subtitles. Can’t we do something for the non Italian readers?

Posted by Miriam on 11/09/11 at 11:58 PM | #

Hi Miriam. Yes I also watched it. You nailed it right! He is not compelling. 

I’m reluctant to ask now for translations as we have so much need coming up. Popper did a great summary on PMF but so far I have not spotted it again. I did see that Popper wrote this:

“Rete 4 is the worst tv channel in Italy, in fact they did a useless interview with RS, without real questions ... RS is less likely to go to “Porta a Porta” as they would ask him real questions. Also, they would not pay him.”

I’m familiar with Porta a Porta because of our past posts on it. I wish we had a show with such elegance and high standards here.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/10/11 at 03:45 AM | #

Hi nopassingby. Thanks a lot for the Facebook capture. Seriously interesting. “Starve the beast” sounds rather less like what they are requesting than suppressing the growing buzz on AK being quite odd that Walter talked of in the post.

They’d be better off also shutting up about Mignini. Like it or not in Italy and Perugia he is a popular and effective pro-victim figure and people only laugh at Lady Preston’s cross-Atlantic squeals.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/10/11 at 03:58 AM | #

On the same Facebook page there is a notice that the pro-defense sites will begin to self-destruct at the family’s request:

“We talked about how the family has the wishes of shutting down large sites that are dedicated to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. As of right now, we don’t want to do anything drastic yet as drastic changes are not good for anything. “

“Eventually this site will be shut down in a few months because of the families wishes. This group contributed to Amanda’s and Raffaele’s release and we did our work, we need to ease back and let them get back to their normal lives. Good job everyone, mission accomplished!”

Posted by brmull on 11/10/11 at 06:38 AM | #

Thanks brmull. It seems that finally someone over there is growing a brain. As Martin pointed out in the post their worst enemies are the friends they have suckered, not us, and those friends are already turning puzzled, suspicious, angry and demanding.

AK is not proving the ideal cash-cow or icon of innocence and a lot more cash from those suckered is going to be required to maintain a defense at the Supreme Court appeal and pay off those claimed debts.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/10/11 at 02:32 PM | #

The Christian Post’s Stoyan Zaimov is the latest and perhaps last of the fast disappearing sock-puppets to be manipulated into posting misleading reports.

Appreciated if someone could tweet, email or F-B message Stoyan to say that he should not be taken in and to read this post and thread for hard truths.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/10/11 at 02:40 PM | #

It’s such a pity but it’s now a waiting game.  I can’t help but think that sooner or later, Knox will be done again for disorderly [as she was in Seattle] - they can’t keep her in mothballs forever and then many scales will fall away from the eyes of former supporters, as mentioned above.  Great patience and good preparation by the prosecution is needed now, perhaps less of the vitriol.

Posted by James Higham on 11/10/11 at 06:00 PM | #

If pro-Knox sites are being told to shut down, it is to disappear themselves for a nefarious reason. Their giant internet footprint was a visible Goliath to TJMK and PMF’s David. They want to exchange places now, and become the tiny David. They want to appear they were the tiny weak but righteous ones persecuted by an evil giant of Knox haters. This is the junk they’re trying to shape for lawsuits in future.

The “best truth they can think” according to this Marriott strategy is that they were not the flagrant media seekers, festooning the airwaves and Net with Knoxophile spin. Why, they only made a peep or two and barely responded at all to the slurs others cast on a possibly innocent suspect. When the exact opposite is the case.

The real truth is that only after the Marriott and FOA-orchestrated rise of Knox like Disney’s Ursula the seawitch in “Little Mermaid”, did a need become frighteningly clear for defenders of truth to come forward, for people to speak up to defend Meredith’s court case against monumental bias.

Posted by Hopeful on 11/10/11 at 06:46 PM | #

Hi Hopeful.  Dont be fooled by how many sites there were. Posters used many names to imply big numbers. Reader numbers on most of those sites were very low and Alexis site rank numbers showed that it was usual for PMF and TJMK to see more readers than all of them combined. They never were the Goliath to any David and the fact that Marriott’s puppets like Bruce Fischer had to turn to posting on Ground Report proves that. Check the comments now on any media thread and their forces are sounding weak and in disarray. 

I see the sites coming down as very good news and dont at all see it as a smart strategic move. More one of panic. Knox and Sollecito are not proving good flagbearers and as Martin said many who supported the campaign with hard work and donations are starting to ask where their immaculate idol is. Knox was probably very rattled by the many curious and expectant watchers she was encountering and the useful idiots like Steve Moore seem to have been pushed well out of her sight. The big-bucks offers are not flowing in. The only easy way out of all of this embarrassing bind is to disappear Knox herself entirely out of sight.

There’s not the slightest possibility of lawsuits. Dont be fooled by that silly talk either. So long as Cassation has not had the final word any commentary is very much protected. And nothing on the pro Meredith pro justice websites remotely compares with the hard line against suspects you can see any day of the week on the CNN crime shows. Besides, we have dozens of good lawyers and more being in touch all the time.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/10/11 at 07:22 PM | #

They are told to shutdown, but then it is just for the sake of record, it is not meant to be followed. Knox just want to tell the people at large that they have nothing to do with it.  It has become a liability (it was an asset one year back, when people were still uncertain about the truth).  Now that she is back home and she has not done anything to publicly and openly clear her name, people in the same forums will be having serious doubts and second thoughts.  So it is a liability to be get rid of ASAP.

I have seen some of these posts and I have only one trivial question: how come many people behave vulgarly in the same way?  Why they can’t be innovative and original in their filthiness?  Are they reading, cutting and pasting from the same script?  All (well, the few I have seen, and I judge by their langauge) are apparently too young to understand the seriousness of the crime and the associated legalese.  They just appear to be “child soldiers” devoted to a simple task.

Posted by chami on 11/10/11 at 07:22 PM | #

Hi Chami. You point out a huge albatross around their necks in that crazed language. We believe the attempt to shut down is quite genuine and panic driven and it is in part to clear the decks of that.

I pointed out one reason in my comment just above, Knox being increasingly obviously tongue-tied, which is what no-one expected, even her closest family and friends. Remember two things that Curt Knox recently said.

(1) Curt said that he never asked Amanda in Capanne what her role was on the night - at least not after their first conversation at Capanne was recorded (the transcript later made its way to the Supreme Court). Now the family has heard her waffle for weeks and must be very scared she puts her foot in it and gets hauled back.

(2) Curt said Knox was never told in Capanne how many worldwide were following the case. Nor presumably how many of them she had failed to convince. As the post at top said a clear majority in Italy and a large minority (growing larger) in the US and UK. Upon emergence Amanda would have been hit with the truth. Now there are shots of her scampering furtively around Seattle with very scared eyes. I doubt anyone would do her physical harm, but she sure does not want tough questions yelled out.

Also remember that NOW Perugia is watching. Only when Mignini talked in court about a million dollar campaign at the end of the appeal did 99% of Italy wake up to what has been going on. The hate campaign with Mignini and Stefanoni as main targets has been very much in English and only now is it being translated and sinking in.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/10/11 at 07:53 PM | #

Thanks Peter.  I wish the Knox PR team had outsourced the posting contract to India!  In these days of bad times, depressed economy, no visible future, we could have used 1 percent of 1 percent of the million dollar contract!

Amanda, we may forget you one day, but the banker will not.  But then you know, you have few options left now.

Have a good sleep, Amanda!

Posted by chami on 11/10/11 at 09:33 PM | #

Peter, you know more about this than I do. I appreciate your insight. I’m especially glad you think the FOA sites being removed is panic driven and not an astute move on their part.

It’s great to hear that TJMK and PMF reader numbers were stronger than the spin gerbils. I guess I was fooled by the various sites and pro-Knox headlines on TV and in print.

If you consider the deletion of FOA internet sites as a bad move for them, I’m thrilled. Their threat of lawsuits as a scare tactic to muffle the truth may come back to bite them. 

Your explanation to chami clears up what’s really going on. Thanks.

An honest reporter with initiative could still get at the truth by merely the courage to thrust a mike in Amanda’s face and ask, “You’re out of prison, cleared of murder. Did you have anything to do with Meredith’s death? etc.”

I don’t want to see vigilante violence or physical harm of any kind done to Amanda. Justice will do the punishing.

Posted by Hopeful on 11/10/11 at 09:44 PM | #

My opinion - the whole thing is marketing strategy. It was reported early on after Knox’s release from prison that Marriott had advised the Knox family to “go dark” - probably this is extending to her FOA posters as well. These types don’t go down without a fight for the big bucks pay off. You’ll see, in a few months, there will be an outpouring of news/media exposure from the Knox camp - a lead up to an interview, book or movie deal.

Posted by giustizia on 11/10/11 at 11:31 PM | #

Why is every Knox defender telling me that the Massei-Report is old news???
I don’t get it.
Just because she’s aquitted it doesn’t mean that all the evidence in the Massei-report was wrong, or does it?

Posted by Terry on 11/10/11 at 11:32 PM | #

Hi Terry. Better not to take any legal advice from them. The Hellman Sentencing Report due out in the New Year must try to explain where the Massei Report went wrong. Then the prosecution will file an appeal mid February showing how Hellman interpreted it wrongly and/or ignored key points. If Cassation orders a retrial at appeal level the Massei Report will be its basic point of refence. The Massei Report is still very much alive.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/11/11 at 12:59 AM | #

Hi giustizia. We dont believe the marketing is going very well. This might be an attempt to juice it but with Knox now conspicuously awol and a convicted felon with a prison record facing a tough appeal and (still) a calunnia trial, we think she is very limited in what she can say that is new. We had a post seriously doubting that any new movie will fly. Interest is moving away from her and to the facts on the ground.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/11/11 at 01:03 AM | #

They say there’s no such thing as bad publicity, but when Knox and her supporters clash openly with the Kercher family—that’s bad publicity. They need to tamp that down until she gets her book out the door.

Posted by brmull on 11/11/11 at 01:11 AM | #

It is my impression that AK has not “gone dark” at all. If I was unfairly imprisoned for four years and under such a spotlight, I’d probably take at least a month or so to convalesce (and get counseling), and then I’d probably want to tell my detailed story of how I was wronged…

Honestly, I can’t figure out the Mellox’s strategy and don’t see anything being done to help AK transition back into a normal and healthy life…(assuming she ever had one.)

Posted by Jeff Friend on 11/11/11 at 01:25 AM | #

I was stunned yesterday when Chris Halkides admitted in a blog comment he had only read the part of the Massei Report dealing with DNA evidence. This is one of the IJP “experts”. That site talks a lot about “confirmation bias”—well, Halkides is a great example: if he has never even read the most thorough elucidation of the opposition viewpoint (Massei) he’s refusing to consider that he might be wrong. No wonder so many people are confused.

I predict that the Hellmann report will correspond almost exactly to the defense arguments in the Massei report. That’s the only way the Hellmann report could even pass first muster with the Cassazione.

Posted by brmull on 11/11/11 at 01:44 AM | #

Thank you Peter for your very quick answer!  And thanks for telling me about the Hellman-report and the appeal.

This is a great site, I get here all the facts and the answers to my questions!

Posted by Terry on 11/11/11 at 02:07 AM | #

Wow, brmull, that’s crazy about Halkides. What an idiot.

Well, I must say, I wouldn’t want to be in Hellman’s shoes right about now. I have visions of long nights (with perhaps a few nips of the ol’ vino), trying to come up with a coherent condemnation of the logical, thorough Massei report.

Posted by Earthling on 11/11/11 at 03:06 AM | #

Hi jeffshana. My guess is any strategy they might have had did a u-turn if and when AK began to give off ominous vibes. Although we are at one with Perugia officialdom in suspecting the parents knew the truth all along, they have probably never mentioned this to AK directly, and so the kabuki dance goes on.

Capanne is not an especially unkind place and we continue to think that for her own working out of problems that really was the best place for her to be. Italy is a kind forgiving place and I think would have been not unhappy to allow her to stay on which she several times said was her own wish.

What happens if she develops an (even more?) overt mental condition at any time in her life? Does she get secretly sent off to a clinic in India or Pakistane, or how will they handle that? Perhaps Bin Laden’s vacant hidey-hole? What a mess.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/11/11 at 03:42 AM | #

Yes Raffaelle Sollecito came across as very vague and vapid during his interview. He spoke in a kind of monotone. He seemed very immature for his age.

Someone asked is it normal for an Italian father to have all those contacts i.e. phone calls and texts everyday. No it is not. Children are usually the womans department in italian culture and the father is the bread winner and head of the family.

The professors at Raffelles college probably contacted his father to tell him about what they found he was looking at on their computers and remind him that they are running an institute of higher learning not a casino. His father knew about his pot smoking as that has come out and he was heard on recorded on the phone as ordering his son BASTA GLI SPINELLI.

How must Raffaele feel now to see AK flaunting her new boyfriend. It was reported last month that Raffaelle intended to accept her invitation before xmas and wanted to look into her eyes. He must feel humiliated after all he has done for her. If it is true he was a virgin to her he would feel terrible.

He is the weak link now. He should come clean and do the honourable thing. I do not believe that any of the 3 got out of bed that morning 1st november 2007 and said to themselves I AM GOING TO KILL MEREDITH TODAY.

Of course not. The scenario Peter wrote about being some type of hazing to bring Meredith down to size was conceived in AKs heart. RS like any man besotted would do anything for her. And of course Rudy was only in it for the sex.

Why cant we hear Rudy yelling from his jail cell LET ME OUT OF HERE I WILL TELL YOU EVERYTHING. ITS NOT FAIR. His silence is deafening.

Posted by mason2 on 11/11/11 at 09:05 AM | #


If I am wrongly convicted and imprisoned (say in a decent country like Italy), this is what I would have done.

1st week: I would be mad at everyone.
2nd week: I would realise that it is not working and I would be drawn in a shell.
3rd week: I would resign to my fate.
4th week: I would consider the best options available in the prison.

I would take up studies very seriously.  At the end of the four years, I would have an impressive set of qualifications.

When I am released, I shall sleep for a whole day and shall be ready for anything… really anything.

As for the comment “don’t see anything being done to help AK transition back into a normal and healthy life” I disagree.  She is already back to a new boyfriend- this is what she wants - her idea of a “normal and healthy life”.

Any questions asked is “torture” in her sense.  She will never be ready to face any questions anytime soon.

Posted by chami on 11/11/11 at 04:25 PM | #

Since this began I have been puzzled by Knox’s psychosis and have used it as a model for examination in others. Several points to examine here are primarily Knox use of people to gain her own way.

She uses the poor little innocent girl trick far too many times for it to be real and continuously believable. In this she will fall down which is why I think she is being kept away from any interview. In consequence and using this technique she ropes in all these over the hill males who see themselves as knights in shining white armor rushing to her rescue. Point is I don’t believe she can keep it up, and she has no backup plan.

The pressure at her house must be tremendous since all her parents will want her to do the interviews thereby recouping their lost millions. This is why she moved out of the house so she could manipulate her latest boyfriend by using sex as a weapon.

Then there’s the dancing in jail clip which I found interesting. If jail was that bad for her then this would be seriously out of the norm. I think she was quite happy in jail since she felt safe there (ala institution etc;)

Then there is the total lack of anger in the trial. There was never a hint of even frustration during it and it was only when she was directly accused of lying did she react. This trait was pointed out in that excellent article ‘Lies our mothers told us’ in other words a strong sociopathic tenancy.

In all of this I see a strong motive if not to kill Meredith then try to control her. Control being Knox’s stock in trade. Meredith being far cleverer than Knox could ever aspire to saw through Knox’s little game after just a few days and therefore would have been perceived as a major threat.

As to the famous P/R group they will want their money for all the time and energy the put in to obfuscate public opinion. I believe there will be hints of guilt coming from Gogarty Mariott who being in business to make money will want their pound of flesh. Of course they could care less about Knox anyway, the almighty dollar being their chief motivator, and guilt is the only way to keep this alive. Nobody cares about innocence. After all never let the truth get in way of a good story.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 11/11/11 at 07:31 PM | #

Reading an article about Clarence Darrow today. Aside from his defense of worthy people like labor organizers and evolution teachers, he also defended some less-savory characters such as Leopold and Loeb, two young men from well-off Chicago families who kidnapped, tortured and murdered a 14-year-old boy. According to this article, when Leopold was asked why, he said, “I did it because I wanted to.”

Murder doesn’t always require some grand motive, unlike the FOAKers try to claim. Not if the perpetrator is disturbed enough.

Posted by Earthling on 11/11/11 at 09:37 PM | #


I heard that Rudy was furious after RS & AK has been acquittet. He said something like “it’s not right that they are free, and I’m the only who has to pay for it”. He was really angry.

Posted by Terry on 11/11/11 at 11:38 PM | #


The Bill James book “Popular Crime” has some fun commentary on Darrow. (The whole book is indeed fun and I can’t stop pushing it on people. LOL)

Posted by Jeff Friend on 11/12/11 at 12:25 AM | #

@mason2, you are very correct in your analysis,she humiliated Sollicito.  This is why I think whilst he is gritting his teeth right now for the public, he is seething underneath the mask.  His immaturity is an indication that he followed along with whatever Amanda wanted to do during the time of the murder.  I predict when the heat gets turned up again, and it will (yup, the massei report is still VERY relevant!), he might start to leak and turn on her with some answers.  I hope so for the sake of the Kerchers.

And one of the missing pieces in this case is the relationship of Rudy Guede to K & S.  Did Amanda lure or seduce Guede in any way? How much of Guede’s current story is true?  I have a hard time believing the sexual contact was consensual, and so I’m led more to the angle that Amanda and Guede had some kind of rapport which led to them both being there “hazing” Meredith.  The truth may never be fully known though.

And “earthling” has a very key point, motive is often “just ‘cause”.  People who lack conscience don’t think about “why” as far as emotional motives are concerned.  Self pleasure and egoic power is all they ultimately care about regardless of others.

Posted by JenE on 11/12/11 at 01:32 AM | #


In Guede’s initial accounts he seems to have wanted to distance himself from Knox, probably for fear that she would slot him into her story as the “new Patrick” (his words). Over time he saw it was to his advantage to more clearly identify Knox and Sollecito. While most of Guede’s story is a lie constructed from media descriptions, his role as a scapegoat, Sollecito’s as an attacker, and Knox’s as the orchestrator could very well be true.

We can’t know how well Guede, Knox and Sollecito were acquainted because they are the only ones who know that. Guede’s claims to have arranged a date with Meredith are contradicted by multiple sources, and seems totally out of character based on everything we know about her.

I am increasingly in agreement with you about the “hazing” theory. I think Guede was roped into this by Knox. The other theory that now seems less likely to me is that the three went to the cottage to party and Knox got into an argument with Meredith.

Posted by brmull on 11/12/11 at 11:30 AM | #

@brmull et al

Thanks for that “new Patrick” item & your views on that.  Otherwise, though, my take is rather different Simply to state certain fixed beliefs about the crime.

(a) Amanda, out of sheer (groundless) spite, she of the uncurbed impulse, has conceived the punishment of rape.  At first in episodic fantasy until the opportunity offers. Within a month.

(b) She meets Sollecito or, as one might fairly say, discovers him.  They fuck, probably following the concert where they met, but what holds her to this man? She has already boasted that she can have any man she wants.

What holds her is precisely discovery: his own fantasy life, his inclinations, hobbies—whatever the clues.  Another instance of which the machine has given cases: two latent psychopaths meet up & connect very quickly on the psychopathic level.

(c) Rape is the intention & accepted. Rape at knife point (RS contribution.)

(d) Halloween plays in & this includes, somehow, the gruesome costume poor Meredith wore with a trickle of blood from the side of her mouth. Alas!

(e) Initial plans may have been thwarted (we don’t know.) Drugs play in (the pair have been using drugs.) Rudy Guede is known to both of them & deals.

(f) Somehow (we know not how) they connect with Guede after the rape-fantasy is chosen & Amanda seductively offers.  Drugs have lowered inhibitions all around & Guede is drawn in—opportunity to have at the attractive Meredith.

(g) All this could be almost last minute. Carelessness, heedless of consequence shows in the haste—After all, she’s known Sollecito for a week!

(h) How it happens that Rudy at some point must use the toilet—the intention of all three has been rape as Amanda lets them into the cottage but (we cannot quite imagine how) the initial move by Amanda & Rafaelle is… at least not quite abrupt.  An excited Rudy finds the bathroom.

(i) But the toilet remains unflushed because a sudden & critical fuss in Meredith’s room calls him away in haste.

(j) He becomes part of it right away, Meredith resisting with passion but showing such restraint as knife-point threats & jabs enforce.

(k) As if this ‘scene’ were not enough to suggest it, the absolute proof that Amanda & Rafaelle both are acting out as the pair of psychopaths they suddenly are is the enforced viciousness which stops at nothing, which cannot be restrained by all the valor of a vigorous Meredith, who has taken (beside cuts) many a bruising blow—the absolute proof, I say, that these two are psychopaths is that Meredith is provoked into a sudden desperate scream loud enough to be heard outside.

(l) The scream does it. Amanda has the big kitchen knife (just as she has needed men for the actual rape, she also needs the big knife.) In complete heedlessness & entire viciousness, caring nothing for her human victim, demanding only Meredith’s submission to her will, Amanda thrusts the fatal knife into the woman’s throat with all her strength.  Out spurts blood all over, Amanda’s little shoe takes enough on the sole to leave its print under the bedding, afterward, where she’s failed to see it later in cleaning up.

(m) Her whipped face afterward (in photographs) shows the depth of cost & (visibly suppressed) astonishment at her own deed.  That quickly passes, however.  She makes the psychopathic adjustment only too easily—Yeah, she’s raped & murdered Meredith. So what!

(n) And the pity now is this: The enforced penalty of a veritable life in prison has been lifted.  Alone, a predicament so dire might have moved Amanda to a deeply considered, a deeply self-researched confession (might have—no proof of that.)
Instead of truth, confession, penitence—nothing. She will not confess.  She will not return to Italy if the supreme court goes against the defective appeal. Can we even be sure of a second appeal?

That would be a social & moral imperative: Amanda must be branded by the judgment no less than poor Hester Prynne was outcast & frowned on when made to wear the Scarlet Letter on such a lesser charge.

Posted by Ernest Werner on 11/12/11 at 07:54 PM | #

Something Werner said about the toilet prompted this thought. What if the unflushed toilet was actually the beginning cause of the entire assault? Could Meredith have railed at “whoever left this mess for me to smell”, insisted they come flush it away, not knowing who had done it. This remark could have incensed Amanda because it referred to her bad habit and embarrassed her in front of the boys. She would also bridle at being told what to do. It also echoed the other girls’ complaint about her not doing her share of the cleaning. It also kicked in Rudy’s anger at being insulted, since he had actually been the one to use the toilet. Perhaps he refused to let a female upstairs deride him when the boys downstairs had let him fall asleep on their toilet without a reprimand (we assume).

Maybe Meredith spoke a dual affront to two toilet offenders, a rebuke which put Rudy and Amanda on the same side against her and the fight commenced. Raffaele might have taken offense that she would dare consider him capable of such a thing as leaving a toilet unflushed. He was a neatnik, and his father was a urologist. Maybe Amanda had been a bit cleaner when visiting his apartment so Raf didn’t know her toilet manners at the cottage had been an ongoing irritation.

And since the toilet refers somewhat to a person’s private areas, the thought of being insulted in that area gave them the idea for the sexual assault to Meredith, to link an insult to her remark.

It’s why the dirty toilet was left intact, as a final refusal to comply with Meredith’s request. In Knox’s case it was also a chance to misdirect the police to Rudy as the only offender. Perhaps it let Foxy indulge her audacity by allowing herself to talk about the unflushed toilet quite boldly to police, knowing its hidden meaning. This is speculation.

Posted by Hopeful on 11/12/11 at 11:28 PM | #


Our two narratives are not necessarily incompatible.

There is no doubt that animosity was building between Knox and Meredith for weeks before the murder. We can’t know for sure, but it seems plausible that Knox was having violent fantasies about her roommate. Sollecito certainly was inclined to indulge such fantasies.

You said all this could be almost last minute. I agree. I think Knox and Sollecito were on their way to the cottage to get a mop. At Piazza Grimana they noticed the cottage lights. They may have even seen Meredith walking home. This is when they hatched their plan. Guede saw them in Piazza Grimana as he was walking home from the kebab shop. They told him the plan and he was game. Knox lets them into the cottage…

But there’s where it gets fuzzy for me. If Curatolo is reliable (and Hellmann will surely say he is not) then murder probably occurred between 10:00-10:30 after which everyone ran back toward Piazza Grimana. Knox and Sollecito got stuck there because of the broken down car, finally returning to the cottage after 11:15. Under this scenario it was Knox who screamed, probably because she had seen Meredith’s body or Sollecito was threatening to abandon her.

If Curatolo is not reliable then we can make all kinds of theories but we have no way to know what transpired between the time Sollecito’s dad called him around 8:40, and around 11:30 when various people heard the scream and commotion. I find the cell phone activity around 10:00 very suspicious that it was Meredith trying to call for help, rather than playing with her phone, and so I think this second scenario is unlikely.

Posted by brmull on 11/13/11 at 01:18 AM | #

@hopeful, I have for so long felt one of the many obvious clues to Amanda’s guilt is the unflushed toilet, and that it was a part of her strategie. 

The unflushed toilet, the blood in the sink…like it’s all messy on purpose.  I have never wondered why there is so much confusion about the facts of this case, they were obscured after the crime by these perps and then as well by their hired media and legal goons.

I belive this crime was more spontaneous than not, with the bulk of the actual planning-to-get-away-with-it happening after the fact in the form of the crime scene clean up and the legal efforts.

In the pics outside of the cottage the morning after the murder Amanda looks utterly exhausted.  I think it was a long night of strategic cleaning, and overconfidence in the aftermath. I also think she was downright “titilated” afterwards, as her sick behavior illustrated (especially the underwear, cartwheels, and her giggly translation of the word “threat” to RS, it all reeks of someone who has a “rush”). 

The police surprised her and she half confessed.  She gave them a black man other than Guede because he knew too much. 

I think the cell phone evidence is very difficult to explain away too.  Combined with everything else, it’s going to be a tricky task for Hellman that’s for sure.  I foresee his blatant failure and a lot of commotion in the near future (some of it amongst the remnants of the “FOA”).

Posted by JenE on 11/13/11 at 04:22 AM | #

re Ernest’s hypothetical-scenario on 11/12/11 at 01:54 pm:

“ (l)…. Out spurts blood all over, Amanda’s little shoe takes enough on the sole to leave its print under the bedding, afterward, where she’s failed to see it later in cleaning up.”

Massei does not rely on any belief that the print Ernest apparently refers-to (the one on Meredith’s pillow-case?) belongs to Amanda.

Therefore any argument by FOA’s, including Hellman, that the shoe-sole-print was made by Guede, and was not made by Knox, does not weaken Massei’s conclusions.

Neither does it weaken Ernest’s scenario.

Massei recognizes (p. 343) that “Professor Vinci, who is Raffaele Sollecito’s technical consultant”, opines that the shoe-sole-print was from Guede’s shoe.

Massei is not silent on this issue but explicitly offers “no specific opinion” on whose shoe-sole-print it was: “The Court, on this point, takes notice of the opposing conclusions without expressing a specific opinion.  (p.344).

Massei does comment (p.344) that “It cannot in fact be excluded that Guede alone tread on the cushion lying on the floor, to the exclusion of Knox (……), to whom [=Knox], actually, one [must] attribute moving herself about the murder scene essentially in bare feet”.

Posted by Cardiol MD on 11/13/11 at 08:07 PM | #

Still no word about an interview with AK and i wonder what is going on in her camp. There was talk of big money for the first interview.

Today i saw a biography on Barbara Walters. She was asked about some of the most important interviews of her career

Mention was made of Fidel Castro, The Shar of Iran, Princess Grace, President Nixon but Barbara said one important interview was with Monica Lewinsky.

She said everyone at that time wanted to do the Lewinsky interview and for lots of money. Barbara said that she liked Monica because at the time she had spent a lot of money on lawyers and was scared of going to jail.  Monica did the interview with Barbara for NO MONEY. Barbara said in her eyes that added to Monica’s credibility.

We are still waiting to see what Amanda Knox is going to do and if so what would she say.

Posted by mason2 on 11/13/11 at 11:03 PM | #

mason2 - if there is an interview, i hope statement analysts will get to work on what she says. so far, in their eyes, she has sunk herself by her written and spoken word.

Posted by nopassingby on 11/14/11 at 01:04 AM | #

I see only three possibilities:

(1) Book before Christmas (“My Prison Journey”)
(2) Book after the Helmmann report (“My Story”)
(3) Both

I doubt that there will be any interview at all. Knox is simply not that likeable, regardless of what her handlers make her say. If there were an interview it would have to be very very limited. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Knox camp demands a veto over the final product.

Posted by brmull on 11/14/11 at 02:09 AM | #

No way will there be any interviews. They would have to have done one by now if they were going to make any money .. strike while the irons hot so to speak.

With regard to Follain’s book I’m on p339, I don’t know why the FOA’s are crying ‘bias’, it’s the most balanced book I’ve read!! Ghirga gets plenty of air-time as do the experts who didn’t agree with the Prosecution, and made comments about her time in the Police Station [on the morning that the trial started] which could be seen as favourable to the defence.

Posted by Melanie on 11/14/11 at 01:26 PM | #

Sorry should read ‘Sophie Purton made comments about her time in the Police Station ...’

I’ll comment more when I’ve finished the book but I’m very impressed with it. It’s written chronologically so it’s exceptionally easy to follow. Rudy comes off as a weak, pampered individual who was mesmerised by Knox. She is a weirdo, an absolute nut-case, an unbalanced individual who could go off the rails at any point. It is quite easy to see what a toxic cocktail these two personalities made, neither one could’ve met up with anyone worse. Curt & Edda come across badly, self centred, bad mannered, egotistical, rude ...

Reading about the impact Mez’s demise had on her English friends makes Knox’s behaviour even more bizarre [remember they too ‘only knew her for one month’]. They all left Italy as quickly as they could. Sophie gave up learing Italian and couldn’t leave the house for months on end ... compare that to the narcissistic behaviour of the convicted.

Apparently the priest believed her - I’ve actually heard that a number of times. Follain interviewed him, but from what’s written in the book Knox comes across as deluded rather than innocent. She read the bible and took comfort from certain passages, as a Catholic I know how easy it is to twist biblical passages to suit yourself.

I’m disappointed that there was no mention [up to this point anyway] of how Dr Sollicito attempted to manipulate the investigation - other than a cursory mention of the televised photo’s of Meredith’s body. The Sollecito family actually get off quite lightly. Although, it would be difficult to cover everything off..

The lawyers for both the Prosecution and the Defence are portrayed favourably which I’m pleased about. Neopaloni and Stefanoni likewise. Interesting fact that Maresca is usually on the defense team - he was a true ambassador for the Kercher’s and seems to have a personal interest in the case [as does all involved].

So far I would rate this book as ‘a comprehensive account’ as opposed to ‘the definitive account’. Roll on the re-trial.

RIP Meredith

Posted by Melanie on 11/14/11 at 02:16 PM | #

Hi Melanie
      Please forgive my suspicious nature, but in view of the latest developments in Italy (Berlusconi et al) is it not impossible that deals were made behind the scenes. The Sollecito’s (so far) got off virtually scott free. Then there is Hellmans actions upon the bench plus the report which ignored and disallowed so much evidence that it insured the freedom of AK and RS. Suspicious to say the least. This does not take into account the actions of the Knox/Mellas camp who trumpeted facts before they were released. Take a look at that vile blogosphere ‘Ground Report’ Hopefully
things may improve with the next go-round although I doubt it. Knox is so obviously sick mentally so therefore I predict she will step in it sooner or later since she now has the confidence to get away with murder. Look for the same excuse once again. “The best facts I can think” ( = dream up! )
Leopards do not change their spots after all.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 11/14/11 at 05:19 PM | #

Hi Graham, do you doubt that there will be a re-trial or that it will have the outcome we want? I’m not sure I agree with what you say about deals behind the scenes, maybe I’m naive but surely none of the players are that important that they could do anyone any ‘favours’. Sollecito [Senior] is a doctor not a business magnet or a Politician. I remain cautiously optimistic but I realise I may be crying into my tea again in a few months time [as I was on October 4th!].

Posted by Melanie on 11/14/11 at 06:01 PM | #

Hi Melanie
      Yes I agree with you. But given the amount of evidence there must be some logical explanation. I am sure though that someone in the FOA camp will make a statement concerning their supposed innocence. Not so by a very long chalk.
It’s a bitter pill to swallow but I live in hope that Meredith will see justice against these three murderers

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 11/14/11 at 06:27 PM | #

It’s been mentioned somewhere that there is confusion regarding the emotional and total opposition from those that believe in the guilt or the innocence these two. While the defenders of AK and RS use hate as a basis for their argument we try to use logic and politeness. The main reason I believe is that we who know they are guilty are defenders of intelligence and the thirst for education. In other words we admire Meredith for her brilliance. Knox on the other hand is defended by people who are bottom feeders at best. Some of the comments coming from Seattle and elsewhere are childish to say the least (example of which is “She’s hot so she must be innocent.” Or “She’s from the USA so she must have been victimised.”) I don’t wish to sound pompous but there it is never the less. AKs defenders comparatively speaking, are obviously of little intelligence as exibited by Knox herself
when you compare her to Meredith.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 11/14/11 at 06:42 PM | #

Hellman seems to have uncritically and selectively bought into C&V’s statements.

Hellman can escape the apparent contradiction re finding against Knox on the calunnia charge but nevertheless finding for Knox on the homicide charge.

This apparent contradiction relies on Knox knowing that Lumumba was not at the crime-scene; if Knox knew that Lumumba was not at the crime-scene, it has been inferred that Knox must have known who was at the crime-scene.

Hellman’s excuse is contained in the last part of the legal definition of calunnia, which IMO equates to the common-law alternative option: “… or in reckless disregard of its truth or falsity”.

Hellman will presumably argue that there is a reasonable doubt whether Knox knew who was, or was not, at the crime scene, but nevertheless is guilty of calunnia because Knox failed to contradict and to withdraw the accusation of Lumumba attributed to her, in reckless disregard of the truth or falsity of her alleged accusation.

Another apparently escapable flaw may reside in the treatment by Italian Law of expert-opinion-witnesses [EOWs].

In Common-Law jurisdictions, before permitting the acceptance of testimony from an EOW, the EOW must be formally qualified at a “voir dire” hearing (voir dire comes from Old French and derives from Latin verum, “that which is true”).

In the United States (especially in practice under the Federal Rules of Evidence), voir dire includes examination of the background of witnesses, to assess their qualification or fitness to give testimony on a given subject.

Therefore, in the U.S. before their testimony is admissible witnesses such as C&V would first be submitted to the same kind of questions that when asked of C&V at the Hellman proceedings were disallowed by Hellman.

Because questions directed at the credibility of a witness are always relevant in common-law jurisdictions, Hellman’s disallowances of some Q’s addressed to C&V are troubling, but may be permissible and understandable under Italian Law.

However, on Hellman’s manifestly false conclusions he has dug himself into a logically inescapable hole.

Unfortunately, this hole may be politically escapable.

While awaiting arrival of Follain’s “Death in Perugia” (DIP), I read his “The Last Godfathers” which reports on the recent history of the political escape from legal accountability of openly-paraded criminal actions in Italy, (especially, but not exclusively Mafia criminal actions).

From Follain’s “The Last Godfathers” one can conclude that legal accountability for actions such as Hellman’s actions are politically escapable in Italy.

From Hellman’s perspective it may be a case of Mission Accomplished.

Pete has pointed-out that the Hellman Sentencing Report is due out in the New Year.

Roll-on 2012!

Posted by Cardiol MD on 11/14/11 at 09:13 PM | #

Hi Cardiol. Really interesting legal angles there. And yes the history of how corrupt politicians used to game the system until Berlusconi came along is well told in this Washington Post article: (same link as under the post above).

Initially Berlusconi did not game or fight the justice system but then his old instincts cut in.

However the forces of justice have been fighting back and in the past decade have really done pretty well. We dont rate the prospects of Hellman’s verdict coming out of the Cassation appeal unscathed very highly.

Not surprising that failed amateur sleuths like Doug Preston who claim their mission is to correct a corrupt system are in Italy gaining zero traction. Like Hellman, they are the pawns of the forces of anarchy.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/14/11 at 11:51 PM | #

From Melanie: “Rudy comes off as a weak, pampered individual who was mesmerised by Knox. She is a weirdo, an absolute nut-case, an unbalanced individual…”

Melanie - i think you meant Raphael in that statement?

Re: RS - His latest statements make him seem like he was so obviously the patsy.  I think he really believed that he and AK were going to get back together after they were freed.  Instead she hotfooted it back to her former boyfriend.  I wonder if he will ever say anything more about that night, but I doubt it, as he would suffer from any new revelations.

If one tries to imagine that Rudy operated alone, like the appeal seemed to say, which is hard to believe given his nature and history, one still has to explain away many odd facts.  How will Hellman explain those or will he have to?  For instance, the fact that there was a little bit of blood in the bathroom so it was obviously partially cleaned up there, and yet very obvious evidence was left in MK’s room as well as the other bathroom?  It doesn’t make sense.  The broken window/break-in was never covered in the appeal either.  It seemed to have been completely ignored.

I wonder if the Knox slander trial will really begin tomorrow or not?  Any word from those of you reading Italian news?

By the way, I’m very glad that the slimy Berlusconi will finally retire.  Now he can go practice his sex with underage girls in peace and quiet.  Every time I see his grinning face in the news I just want to throw up.  Thank goodness for someone new Mr. Monti who seems rational and intelligent and hopefully has much more integrity too.

Posted by believing on 11/15/11 at 12:29 AM | #


I think I’ve said this before, but according to Follain and others, Knox’s 1:45 and 5:45 statements were only admissible for the calunnia trial. This gives Hellmann a lot of lattitude to find Knox guilty of calunnia but (perhaps) innocent of the other charges.

Regarding the C-V report, I noted this on PMF but according to Graham Johnson (author of Darkness Descending):

“The Italian appeals process offers more guarantees to defendants than any other legal system in the world, whereby only the weakest evidence is treated, not the whole case. Knox’s team only had to attack the DNA evidence against her to undermine the whole edifice of the original trial. Italy has one of lowest prison populations in the world because of its lenient appeals process.”

If this is true, then the prosecution erred by introducing DNA evidence that was too difficult to defend in court.

Posted by brmull on 11/15/11 at 12:34 AM | #

It was so telling that as soon as the DNA evidence was questioned in court the various media started enthusiastically predicting Knox’s freedom and systematically ignoring the rest of the holistic picture that comprises the evidence that got her rightfully convicted in the first place.

Most of the FOA and people who were skeptical of Knox’s guilt wanted extreme hard evidence CSI style, which as previously discussed seems to be the way the modern justice system is turning.  All the circumstantial evidence and witnesses were things they could rationalize away.  They dismissed the confessions and changed stories, and ultimately dismissed Lumumba too.  It seems like the appeal court was under this kind of “spell” that perhaps all the media scrutiny and doubt cast over the process. 

Hellman will most likely ignore certain points in the report just as during the appeal process.  I think the Hellman report will paint a fragmented picture.  His blatant statements of doubt shortly after the verdict indicate he knows it too.  There are going to be gaping holes and they will be noticed. 

Knox’s clean up was sloppy but in the end it resulted in her freedom.  As stated above, logical people who have a passion for truth and the education process can see the bird’s eye view of the evidence, but the FOA types and much of the TV enchanted public see only the fragmented picture painted by the defense and Amanda herself (“The best facts I can think”).

Posted by JenE on 11/15/11 at 01:26 AM | #

This is my first time posting, although I have been following the case and this site for years. You have all done a wonderful job in keeping the FACTS of the story straight, facts which the ignorant ignore, but which undeniably point to Knox’s and Sollecito’s guilt.
Some people say that Knox is not guilty because she had no motive. Well I don’t know if anyone knows the story of Michele Avila, the high school girl who was murdered by her 2 best friends because they were jealous of her. I would say that jealousy was Knox’s motive and jealousy combined with drugs can make people commit horrible acts. So to those who say that Knox had no motive, that would be my response.

Posted by Maraki on 11/15/11 at 04:32 AM | #

Hi Maraki, you are so right about motive. There was a link to the Michele Avila story on this site some months ago, it was very shocking indeed and there are many more stories just like that out there. Meredith’s mother said it best the day after the acquittal “they killed her because she was all that they are not”, that statement sums up this entire case.

Posted by Melanie on 11/15/11 at 11:25 AM | #

I’m deeply impressed by the passion of all the people who continue to fight for true justice for Meredith. Keep up your motivation - sometimes justice needs time, spirit and longstanding support. And expertise as well.

Posted by Dr. Weissnix on 11/15/11 at 06:18 PM | #

Calunnia trial has been prosponed due to Italian lawyers being on strike.

Posted by Miriam on 11/15/11 at 09:01 PM | #

@Grahame Rhodes
” Amanda Knox is so obviously mentally sick” ...Does that mean that this could become her new predicament soon? :
Now seriously , though, I have to admit that to me she seems staggeringly sane. And a lot of people in psychiatric hospitals are treated way worse than she ever was in her spa-like Italian prison.
But I wonder if a psychiatrist ever spoke to her while she was incarcerated. I suppose if she and RS had been declared insane ,they would have been put in a forensic psychiatric hospital ( a hospital for mentally ill criminals.) As far as I am concerned they should feel lucky they weren´t.

Posted by aethelred23 on 11/15/11 at 11:31 PM | #

Hi there aetheired23

Well yes. But some of our most striking criminals appeared perfectly sane. Robert Pickton here in Canada murdered 26 women and fed their bodies to the pigs on his farm yet he is deemed to be sane.

Karla Hamolka with Paul Bernardo raped and killed her own sister. She got off. Bernardo didn’t.  (Something else that’s wrong with the Justice system) They also raped and murdered Leslie Mahaffy and Kristen French yet they are deemed to be sane.

Kelly Ellard killed Reena Virk in Victoria BC because she didn’t like her. Sound familiar. While not wishing to sound vindictive. Ah! What the hell… My fondest wish is that nothing good ever happens to Amanda Knox.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 11/16/11 at 01:53 AM | #

I really dont understand what evidence this site is observing that points to Amanda being guilty, i really dont. I myself after reading the Massie report thought that she was guilty and it was a travesty that she was not convicted. But i started digging a little more and started looking into her appeal and all the new evidence which was provided and it is without a doubt in my mind that she is 100% innocent of this crime.

Please review all the evidence and you will see that everything found to date totally absolves her from the crime. Please ask me anything to do with the case and I can show you how the evidence found contradicts your evidence. Please do so!

Posted by RimJob on 11/16/11 at 08:28 PM | #

Hi RimJob

Can I take you up on your offer; I speak as a long time follower/commentator on this site and have of course read the Judges’ reports. 

It is the standard evidence that has been repeated and reiterated on here numerous times all of which you say you are aware.  Maybe a point by point rebuttal might be in order.

Posted by Lola on 11/16/11 at 09:25 PM | #

I would be down with that. The only report I have not read is the one that is currently only in Italian. I believe it was for Rudy’s trial. List your first point as to why you think she is guilty and I will try and counter.

Posted by RimJob on 11/16/11 at 09:44 PM | #

Hi RimJob,

Nobody has ever provided a plausible innocent explanation for Knox’s and Sollecito’s numerous lies before and after 5 November 2007. Why do you think they gave multiple conflicting alibis and lied repeatedly?

Sollecito’s DNA was identified by two separate DNA tests. Of the 17 loci tested in the sample, Sollecito’s profile matched 17 out of 17. Professor Novelli pointed out there’s more likelihood of meteorite striking the courtroom in Perguia than there is of the bra clasp being contaminated by dust. Do you believe that an abundant amount of Sollecito’s DNA floated on a speck of dust and landed with laser-like precision on the exact part of Meredith’s bra that had been bent out of shape by one of her killers?

Dr. Stefanoni analysed the traces on the knife in her laboratory six days after last handling Meredith’s DNA. This fact rules out the possibility that the knife could have been contaminated in the laboratory. Meredith had never been to Sollecito’s apartment. How would you account for Meredith’s DNA on the blade of the knife?

According to the prosecution’s experts, there were five instances of Knox’s DNA or blood mixed with Meredith’s blood in three different locations in the cottage. Dr. Renato Biondo, the head of the DNA unit of the scientific police, reviewed Dr. Stefanoni’s investigation and the forensic findings. He testified at Rudy Guede’s fast track trial in October 2008 and confirmed that all the forensic findings were accurate and reliable. Distinguished DNA expert and former Caribinieri General Luciano Garofano analysed the DNA and forensic evidence for Darkness Descending”. He confirmed that Knox’s blood had mingled with Meredith’s bood. Even Amanda Knox’s lawyers conceded that this had happened. How would you account for the mixed blood evidence?

Rudy Guede’s bloody footprints led straight out of Meredith’s room and out of the house. This means that he didn’t stage the break-in in Filomena’s room or go into the blood-spattered bathroom after Meredith had been stabbed. Who staged the break-in in Filomena’s room and who tracked Meredith’s blood into the bathroom?

The bloody footprint on the blue bathmat in the bathroom matched the precise characteristics of Sollecito’s foot, but couldn’t possibly belong to Guede. How do you account for the bloody footprint on the blue bathmat?

Is it a coincidence that the three people - Knox, Sollecito and Guede - who kept telling the police a pack of lies are all implicated by the DNA and forensic evidence?

Why did Amanda Knox voluntarily admit that she was involved in Meredith’s murder in her handwritten note to the police on 6 November 2007?

Why did Amanda Knox state on four separate occasions that she was at the cottage when Meredith was killed?

Amanda Knox acknowledged to her mother that it has her fault that Diya Lumumba was in prison in an intercepted conversation with her mother on 10 November 2007. Why didn’t she retract her false and malicious allegation against Lumumba when he was in prison?

Posted by The Machine on 11/16/11 at 10:19 PM | #

1) Conflicting stories: At the end of the day some of the minor details didnt line up but they both claimed to have spent the night together. Plus how does this make them guilty of murder?

2) DNA from Sollecito: I am assuming that we are talking about the knife and the bra clasp so i will separate the two.

a) Knife: DNA was found on a kitchen knife that Sollecito uses to cook with. What does this prove? A better question you should ask is why out of all the knifes in the house the police chose this one knife as the murder weapon and was the only knife they tested for DNA? His house was full of knifes and they only test one! And the one they test was too big to make 90% of the wounds causing Manini story to crumble so he then suggests that there must have been 2 knifes.

b) Bra clasp: First off, the DNA on this bra clasp was so small that the DNA was destroyed during the test. It was so small that it would never been allowed as reliable evidence in a US court of law. The clasp was swept into the corner and picked up later about 45 days later. Why were they coming back 45 days later anyways? Oh because Manini was looking for anything to put him in the crime scene. The people handling the clasp did not change gloves and this DOES matter! they did a test where they collected soda cans as evidence without changing gloves and the DNA of other people were found on the cans. Finally why would his DNA be only on the clasp??? It makes no sense since he would have had to hold the bra strap in order the cutoff the clasp. Sollecito’s DNA was on no other place on the bra, while Rudys was everywhere!

3) Merediths DNA on knife: Once again the DNA was so small that it would never be allowed in US court because it is not reliable or accurate. So small that it could not be retested because it got destroyed in the the first test! Meredith’s DNA was found on the blade because there was small amounts on the testing equipment from before. Thats how small the sample was! The forensic team did a horrible job collecting and bagging evidence this case.

4) Mixed DNA: These girls not only lived together, but they shared the same bathroom. That should be enough said, and I was not too sure about mixed blood but even so they are women and they tend to do something once a month (need i say more).

5) Bloody Footprints: First of all it later was found that it was Rudys bloody foot print on the bath mat. The prosecutions expert had originally made an error when analyzing the foot prints. There are videos and sites that show Rudy’s foot and the print side by side. You can even see for yourself they match.

6) Who staged the break in?: Easy, NO ONE! It didn’t have to be staged because Rudy broke in! Look at his previous robberies they match this description perfectly. Also he has broken into places using high inconvenient windows and was caught with a knife!

7)Amanda confession to police: It was a interrogation which lasted a very very long time without washroom breaks, food, or water. It was also an illegal interrogation because it was never recorded or video taped which it is suppose to be by law. Why not? Anyone will say anything after awhile of that sort of interrogation. Thats why Lumumba was so called tossed under the bus. It was the police that was insisting that he was involved because they saw a text to him that said “cya later” which the police interpreted as I will see you later on this night. They also at the time found a hair of a black male and Lumumba was black, so they assumed it was him and pushed it on Amanda until she could not take it any more and broke under pressure. She redacted everything shortly the finally released her. This was not the first time Manini used these sort of fear tactics to get people to say what he wants. I believe it happened to an American Journalist who was writing a book on the monster of Florence. Please look into the history of Manini and you will see how this man is totally crazy.

Posted by RimJob on 11/16/11 at 11:20 PM | #


1) Conflicting stories - you say ‘minor’, yet important details didn’t line up.  How could they ‘not remember’?  No, doesn’t make them guilty of murder, but arouses suspicion as to why they might not be very clear and very adamant as to their whereabouts.  Why did they lie about the time they woke up in the morning when phone records contradict this?

2a) No the same question remains.  It has been stated many times why the experienced police officers selected that knife, which seemed to have been very shiny compared to the others. You are wrong about the wounds being incompatible.  Still no explanation as to why Meredith’s dna on there in the first test.

2b) Bra clasp sample was not ‘too small’ though the clasp had rusted at the time of second trial, as one would expect with metal. Not collected for 46 days because defence made excuses not to attend earlier.  Not ‘dirty gloves’ but new ones.  Tiny specks of dust appear to have come from the floor.  There would be no need for the straps to be grasped; a simple experiment can demonstrate that. Question still not answered - did the dna ‘float’ onto the bra from some dust?  Rudy’s dna wasn’t ‘everywhere’.  There were a number of smudged footprints and fingerprints.  There was also a woman’s footprint.

3) Merediths DNA on the knife - it was already known there was insufficient dna to run a second test.  The DNA got there from the testing equipment?  Really?  Do you have a credible source for that statement?  The knife was bagged and collected appropriately.  What should have happened that didn’t and how would that affect the result?

4) Mixed blood - you need to read the forensic reports which indicates that menstrual and normal blood are not the same in dna terms.  What about the mixed dna evidence in the break-in room?

5)  All expert evidence and testimony, including the Massei report, identifies the footprint as Sollecito’s.  Who are your expert sources on this?

6) Staged break in - police and expert witnesses testified to clear evidence of staging.  Defence was unable to prove, with a man of similar height and stature as Guede, that it was possible to break in from outside. Window simply too high.  Also in full view of road above. 

7) Interrogation which “lasted a very very long time without washroom breaks, food, or water .. It was also an illegal interrogation” ... Not even going to bother addressing this. You appear to have no idea of the duration and circumstances of her ‘interrogation’.  Suffice to say not even the defence lawyers complained about her treatment.  The prosecutor was not even present for much of it.  She didn’t retract the statement at all and gave it voluntarily and freely, saying that she ‘had a present’ for the prosecutor.

You may want to learn the real name of the chief prosecutor in the first trial by the way, when you go back to further analyse the evidence and records.

Posted by Lola on 11/17/11 at 12:05 AM | #

Hi RimJob,
You wrote: “Conflicting stories: At the end of the day some of the minor details didnt line up but they both claimed to have spent the night together. Plus how does this make them guilty of murder?”

Knox and Sollecito gave completely different accounts of where they were, who they were with and what they were doing on the night of the murder. Sollecito told the police that he and Knox spent the night of the murder at his apartment. He then changed his story and said that Knox left his apartment at about 9.00pm and came back at around 1.00am. He admitted that he had lied to the police and said that Knox had asked him to lie for her.

After Knox was informed that Sollecito was no longer providing her with an alibi, she stated on at least four separate occasions that she was at the cottage when Meredith was killed. Lying repeatedly to the police will always be considered to be a clear indication of guilt. You still haven’t provided a plausible innocent explanation for Knox’s and Sollecito’s numerous lies. I’m assuming that you have the mental capacity to understand that it’s not possible to be at two different places at the same time, and this means it is an indisputable fact that Knox and Sollecito both told blatant lies to the police.

Posted by The Machine on 11/17/11 at 01:17 AM | #

Nice to have Rimjob visit us from another planet. This wrong claim among the many others made me laugh:  “Manini used these sort of fear tactics to get people to say what he wants. I believe it happened to an American Journalist who was writing a book on the monster of Florence. Please look into the history of Manini and you will see how this man is totally crazy.”

So Preston turns up in a foreign country without an ounce of practical crime-solving experience (or good Italian) and totally unasked he inserted himself into a very sensitive case. Mr Mignini wanted to know why he was using a false name and attempting to plant false evidence. Then he let him go free, with a warning to go get a good lawyer. Mignini barely remembered the encounter, it was so short, and he sure didnt extract any confession or for that matter (as he could have done) arrest Preston. Even Preston barely made anything of it right after.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/17/11 at 01:38 AM | #

Rimjob is an excellent example of the exact talking points that are not only false, but commonplace in the FOA postings.  These of course are the facts the PR campaign was so successful in obfuscating and skewing.

The interrogation is the most popular one.  It’s not even an issue, she was fed and she had an interpretor.  The taping/filming of the interrogation didn’t happen because it was not an interrogation at first, it was a questioning. 

No matter what it’s always “Amanda was the victim of police” and they now blame the police for Lumumba too.  This is what happens with cognitive dissonance.  People just swallow lies.  They cannot reconcile WHY AManda would not only commit a crime, but lie about it, finger an innocent man, and lie some more.

Also, I would like to see a legit source that says the bathmat print was Guede and not Sollicito.

Posted by JenE on 11/17/11 at 02:11 AM | #

When questioned about Meredith’s DNA being on the blade of the knife found at Sollecito’s, he didn’t say that he didn’t know how that could have happened, considering she’d never been to his home. Instead, he said that he accidentally pricked Meredith with the knife once while cooking dinner for her, which is obviously a lie, since she had never even been to his home. This indicates that he knew that her DNA was in fact on the blade, since he took part in her murder. Had there only been one or two inconsistencies in Knox’s and Sollecito’s stories, that might have been considered a coincidence. But not all of the lies they told. There are just too many lies and inconsistencies for them to be innocent.

Posted by Maraki on 11/17/11 at 04:36 AM | #

Did you know that in his closing speech, Vedova’s best shot on the break in (and I kid you not - he actually said this), was that an intruder could easily have jumped from the cottage car park level to Filomena’s window? WTF!

Do we know whether anyone from the appeal panel ever went near the cottage? Just asking.

Posted by James Raper on 11/17/11 at 12:57 PM | #

Right. And Sollecito’s cat turned on Sollecito’s cell phone at 5:30 am. When he and Knox were supposedly sleeping. That brilliant explanation was Bongiorno’s. Shame on them.

Posted by Maraki on 11/17/11 at 01:45 PM | #

Hi James. There was definitely no official equivalent for the appeal judges of this 17 April 2009 tour by the trial judges and lawyers of the crime scene.

Dalla Vedova can be seen (at right) in that top shot, perhaps figuring out how a burglar could leap through the closed shutters. He was also shown the five other possible ways of breaking in to the apartment, including the easy climb to the balcony at the rear which real burglars later used on two occasions.

In light of that his claim was indeed pretty daffy. Bongiorno was the one that had a staff member try to climb up. In the appeal they all left the matter of Filomena’s room very much alone. Judge Hellman may have thought the break-in authentic.

Here again is a link for our new arrivals who havent yet seen them to your very damning powerpoints of 2 August. Pity Judge Helllman and co didnt go through them and try to respond to them. One great yardstick for his forthcoming sentencing report.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/17/11 at 04:33 PM | #

Is it just me or do FOAs come here and say their talking points and then never come back when their points are systematically debunked?

I have a feeling rimjob won’t be back, or will come back and ignore many of the points so beautifully laid out here. 

I’m so tired of the FOAs telling me there is zero forensic evidence pointing to AManda.  It’s getting old.  Moore has done a great job doing the thinking for these zombies.

Posted by JenE on 11/17/11 at 09:00 PM | #

I have noticed that as well JenE, i just wonder why people bother to actually respond to them it is just a waste of time they will never be convinced she is anything other than innocent. That is until the next time she does it..!!

Posted by distemper on 11/17/11 at 10:32 PM | #

They just need their daily fix of telling the ‘truth’ to the unconverted. Yep, it’s a kind of religion.

Posted by nopassingby on 11/18/11 at 11:43 AM | #

The Machine is masterly as usual, yet it means nothing to the one addressed. Dialogue is impossible with those who close themselves off from all approach, that is, from reason. Or chose the stance of an unreceptive obstinacy.

I confess to an apprehension, now, that the Italian supreme court will not take up this case again. The logic (or psychology) of it would be: Knox & Sollecito were properly found guilty during the first trial (which may have been strung out deliberately?) & have served their time.

Length of sentence is not what counts here but the just sentence of guilt, when deserved.

Posted by Ernest Werner on 11/19/11 at 04:42 PM | #

Hello, this is RIMJOB under a new account. To respond to those laughing on how people come on this forum and say Amanda is innocent but once they hear your arguments you never hear back from them. To put an explanation as to why you do not hear back from them is be cause the admin of this site disables their account from posting comments. This has forced me to open a brand new account which takes a few days in order to voice why i have not responded. IT WAS BECAUSE I WAS SILENCED BY THIS SITES ADMINISTRATOR. So much for TRUE justice. Anyways here are my responses to your arguments.

Well allow me to rebuttal!

First of all any one who are still quoting facts and “proof” from the Massie report obviously didn’t bother to pay attention to how the defense discredited almost everything in that report.

DNA on bra clasp: The DNA was miniscule! If you saw the pictures, that clasp traveled all over that room and was eventually swept into a corner before it was picked up as evidence. Both Amanda and Sollecito had been allowed back into the house before the bra clasp was collected! It just doesn’t add up!!! How can you accuse Sollecito of being in the murder room when the only evidence of him being there is a small (smaller then allowable for accurate DNA testing, no one has addressed this in their responses) tiny bit of DNA on NOTHING ELSE in the room but on the bra clasp which was tossed around the room for 45 days. No other DNA in the murder room!! Rudy’s DNA is all over the murder room! It’s everywhere! The DNA was so small it might have been a dead skin cell smaller then a speck of DUST! For further information please check this link:

2) a) Finding of the Knife in Sollecitos apartment: I find it funny that the reason why it was chosen was because it was “overly clean”. I find this hilarious! As a investigator your job is to investigate!! Why not test all the knives in the drawer! And if that is the only thing he is going on “this knife looks clean, lets ignore all other knives” that alone shows how sloppy this investigation was done. Like i said in my other post, Raf and Amanda cooked dinner together almost every night! It would not be uncommon to find Amanda’s DNA on multiple knives in Raf’s kitchen!, but we will never know that since the police decided to only test the “over clean knife” Again does this look like good detective work? 

b) Knife wounds were compatible: Again this is a comment made by someone who is obviously unfamiliar with the case. The only wound that this knife would be compatible with was the final and largest wound. The rest of the wounds are to small. But the final wound was so large that any knife could have been used to make it including the knife that made the other wounds on her neck! Plus the blade in Raf’s kitchen does not match the bloody blade imprint left on the bed. There was certainly only one knife used and it was used by Rudy.

Please see the following link:

3) The Interrogation was not an interrogation it was questioning: First of all this was an interrogation and to say otherwise you are unaware of Italian law. If it was a questioning as one of you said it would then be required by Italian law that an attorney be present during the questioning. This was not so, because it was really an INTERROGATION. She repeatedly denied she was there, but after hours and hours of exhausting questioning without food,water, or bathroom, and being told she was a liar and she would go away for 30 years if she did not give them what they want, is when she claimed to have a DREAM/VISION of being there and Patrick killing her. Remember it was the police who brought Patrick into this not Amanda. They found the text on her phone and they had a hair that belonged to a black man in the murder room. Please see this link:

4) That is Sollecitos bloody foot print on the bathmat: Again you are basing this on OLD evidence which was proven to be incorrect. Think about it for a second. If it was proven that it was his foot print in the bathroom then he would be behind bars right now or would have had to change his story again. He did not because the prosecutions expert had made an error when recording and converting the measurements. It actually matched the foot of Rudy. Please see the following:

5) Staged Break-in: Again IT WAS A REAL BREAK IN and was very much possible! Rudy made these EXACT same break ins before! Please do your due diligence and look at Rudy’s previous break’s in which he was caught for! Who knows how many break in’s he had committed that he was not caught for! Please check out this:

6)CAN SOMEONE PLEASE GIVE ME THEIR VERSION OF EVENTS AS TO WHAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT AND HOW SHE WAS MURDERED? Because so far my version makes the most sense. How can a violent crime scene like that leave no traces of Amanda and Raf DNA??? Rudys was everywhere!!! You keep bring up this DNA on the knife but keep ignoring the plain fact that the DNA sample is far to small to be slightly credible or ACCURATE!!! It’s so small that it could be the reminiscence of any of the DNA that might have been transferred to the actual testing equipment. To visualize how small this sample was, it could have been a single skin cell or speck of dust. Thats how small the DNA evidence was!!!! IT IS TOO SMALL TO BE CREDIBLE! PLEASE STOP IGNORING THIS PLAIN FACT!!!! If Raf sneezed in the room the sample found would have been GREATER then was found on both the bra and knife!

Let’s see if I get banned from making comments! If you do not hear from me then you know the admin is again silencing me.

Posted by HUGO on 11/21/11 at 06:31 PM | #

RIMJOB (HUGO), perhaps it was your nasty name that got you banned, who knows.  Either way I’m going to go over your rebuttal…

1) I’ve personally never given much weight to the bra clasp, but it’s still debated hotly.  I think the 45 day delay was ridiculous. It was swept into the corner..ok, so how did the DNA get on there?  Contamination seems fishy to me as an explanation, but whatever, the bra is a moot point for me, there is ample evidence besides it. 
Also, “No DNA in the murder room” for RS and AK really doesn’t mean much to me either.  The team didn’t sweep every inch of that room, and getting DNA on something means rubbing on it, bleeding on it, shedding hair, etc.  Those two could have been in that room and no traces found.  And of course Rudy’s DNA is all over, he admits he was with Meredith that night.  The clean up also minimized the footprints they knew were theirs.  Perhaps they even thought the bathmat was Rudy, or more likely they just didn’t see it.

2)The knife from RS’s apartment, also, how did the DNA get there?  It DID come up in the test.  OH YEAH, Raf told us in his diary how it got there, Meredith accidentally got pricked when she was at Sollicito’s apartment.  RIGHT?  That was his first response to hearing of the knife.  What a strange thing to lie about.  Why would ne feel the need to make up a story like that upon hearing about a knife?  It’s a fact Meredith never went to his home, so it’s another in the stack of LIES. 

And the rest of the wounds were too small because they were Raf’s pocket knife.  I think it’s been concluded there was more than one perp because of the various kinds of wounds.

3) I won’t argue Italian law, and perhaps it wasn’t done properly, but you trying to tell me that girl implicated an innocent man and held to that confession long after this interrogation simply because the police verbally pushed her for hours and hit her on the back of the head (allegedly).  EVEN IF they smacked her head and grilled her for hours she is still a cheeky cad for pinning anything on Patrick (and not recanting later!).  THAT is why they had to convict her on that charge, 3 years time served!!! IMO, she deserved the jail time just for lying about Patrick. 

Amanda is portrayed as victim here and it’s pathetic and part of what ruined her case for me.  Four separate times she stated she was in the cottage the night Meredith died. 

4)  The link you gave me doesn’t seem to have an official source for the footprint being Guede’s, and that is what I asked for.  It’s an FOA analysis and opinion, not fact. And WHY would Rudy’s bloody SHOE PRINTS lead out the door?  Did he take his shoes off to clean them only to put them back on again and run out with blood trailing? 

5) If you think that was a real break in then I cannot talk sense your way.  Rudy didn’t do this “exact” same break in before and I’ve seen enough of the height of the window and the fact the glass is so tightly broken in there, like the shutters were still closed. It would be the path of most resistance, by far the most difficult point of entry.  The window was obviously broken from the inside. 

You act like the entire Massei court were fools, but any layman can see that break in is dubious at best.  It would be less weak if you guys just tried to say, “Rudy faked the break in” or something. 

6) Amanda and Raf knew Rudy.  I believe either they had him over or he is telling the truth and Meredith did.  Either way Amanda was at the cottage that night and by all the evidence so was Raf.  Rudy ran out after the stabbing, which I’m not even entirely sure he’s lying about but his fleeing tells me he was afraid, and I think Amanda and probably Raf cleaned up in the wee hours. 

I think the hardest think for FOAs to understand is what a sociopath, esp. one using alcohol and drugs, is capable of and WHY.  Again, the flatmates are all convinced AManda was involved because they had sensed the tension and knew about the dynamic.  Plus with the cellphones, AMandas many tales and her letters and written confessions, etc. it’s clear to me why they were convicted in the first place and why Hellman’s report will be a fail.

Posted by JenE on 11/21/11 at 08:10 PM | #

Peter pays the bills and he decides what kind of discussion is respectful of Meredith. I have really nothing to add to JenE’s excellent response. Please read other sources besides IJP.

Posted by brmull on 11/21/11 at 08:58 PM | #

Thanks JenE and brmull. For the second time, Hugo/Rimjob, do read the member agreements you agree to. Ours has only two simple stipulations. You agreed to both and then ignored them - twice.

They were put there at popular request way back to ensure that Meredith’s circle can safely read here. Part of your first long comment was removed because you sounded quite depraved. This crime did not involve necrophilia.

Otherwise we dont remove comments. As brmull says, perhaps you need to expand the scope of your reading. That really is a fantasy-world scenario you are describing. The defenses themselves made almost none of those claims.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/21/11 at 09:03 PM | #


Perhaps you were banned because this site is about ‘truth’ and ‘justice’, not propaganda. 

“First of all any one who are still quoting facts and “proof” from the Massie report obviously didn’t bother to pay attention to how the defense discredited almost everything in that report.”  False - I can assure you I paid full attention to the (weak) defence case.  Defence clearly didn’t discredit report or else much more of the evidence points would have been disputed at appeal. 

“DNA on bra clasp miniscule!”  False.  Sufficent DNA was found for testing.  DNA is DNA and lasts for years, not days.  Are you not aware of that simple fact?  Knox and Sollecito had been allowed back into the house before the bra clasp was collected!?  Really, by all accounts the room was sealed. A “dead skin cell smaller then a speck of DUST” - so your theory is that it ‘floated’ in from outside the shut door, into the room and directly on to the clasp? Guede’s DNA not ‘everywhere’. Footprints/palm prints smeared etc ... have you actually read the earlier criticisms?

You again avoid the issue of Meredith’s dna on the knife and Sollecito knowing about it.

“Unfamiliar with the case”?  Find that insulting.  Have read every conceivable reputable source, as well as non-reputable on ‘injustice in perugia’.

I’m getting bored now and don’t want to invest any further time on what I have already laid out above.  You still provide no proper sources for your story and theories and ignore evidence for which you have no explanation (ie mixed blood, phone records)

I think JenE and distemper say it quite nicely above.

Posted by Lola on 11/21/11 at 09:23 PM | #

Hi Hugo, Rimjob or whoever,

Well, so many links to injusticeinperugia! As if we hadn’t already guessed.

I would imagine that most, if not all of us, at any rate anyone with any serious pretensions to understanding the case, have already been to that site, and so, yes, we have already considered the arguments presented there and have, in the main, rejected them as pretentious nonsense incorporating unsustainable assertions loosely derived from facts.

If there are any posters or readers here who haven’t been to injusticeinperugia then I would urge them to go and have a good read. By comparison with the wealth of rational analysis and comment on this site, on all aspects of the case, the reader will not be long detained over there.

As for your above post I see that you have swallowed the selective main articles over there wholesale, without any critical examination. This is akin to adopting a creed or a religion. Fine, if you want, but go and rant your nonsense in your own church. Here your posts are about as delightful as having a Jehovah’s Witness’s foot in one’s door and no one wants to make the fatal mistake of inviting you in out of curiosity or from a misplaced sense of politeness.

If, however, you truly want to argue any detail sensibly, without the wild and blind assertions, then you will have to change your ways, but in that respect you have already blotted your copybook.

Posted by James Raper on 11/21/11 at 09:24 PM | #

Rimjob aka Hugo,

You have to study a bit about blood and DNA.  Blood is sticky and it clots and coagulates.  That is why blood is difficult to clean afterwards.  That is the reason blood stains stay for a long time.

You have no idea about DNA. DNA is the largest molecules in the world (organic) and even if it breaks down it will not match another DNA.  You keep on telling us US court of law needs lots of blood for testing but you do not give any evidence.  Even a single molecule is good enough evidence and there were 100s of them on the bra clasp.  Dead skin cells are no good for DNA testing. 

DNA found on the knife was small (perhaps 1-2 molecules) but the results are the same. Small sample does not make the result invalid.  It cannot be explained just as contamination because you need to tell how the contamination took place.

For a scientist, everything is contamination.  The knife was contaminated with MK’s blood.  The bra clasp was contaminated with RS’s DNA.  The footprint was contaminated with both blood from MK and AK.  You have to explain these contamination.

You just say it was collected 45 days later. DNA has been collected 10,000 year later.  It does not make it somebody else’s DNA.  During 45 days, RS’s DNA did not land over the place.  If, as you say, everybody’s DNA is everywhere, the tool would be useless.

You try to do a cartwheel in a US police station and see what happens.  If she could not understand Italian, then how she was working in a bar? Do not make useless arguments about interpreters.  Politicians always use interpreters because they need and get the time to frame the answers.  She insisted for an interpreter and she got it.  She also needed time to answer.

Why did she need a million dollar PR campaign within 3 days of her arrest? 

First you be convinced yourself and then only you can convince others.  Your reply suggests that you yourself are not convinced.

Posted by chami on 11/21/11 at 09:54 PM | #

Hi Rimjob/Hugo,

If anyone is laughing at you, it’s because you’re unbelievably thick and you continuously make claims that are demonstrably false.

In case you don’t know, DNA evidence tends to be miniscule and can’t be seen by the naked eye. Sollecito’s DNA wasn’t LCN DNA and it was double tested. It wasn’t tossed around the room once let alone for 45 days. Making false claims like this doesn’t strengthen your arguments, it undermines them.

Guede’s DNA wasn’t all over Meredith’s room. There were four instances of his DNA in Meredith’s room. Surprisingly, there was only one instance of his DNA on Meredith’s body despite the fact she suffered 47 separate wounds. This point is worth focusing on because it highlights the fact that it’s possible to subject someone to a brutal physical assault and not leave any DNA on their face, neck, head and hands. Meredith was strangled with such force that her hyoid bone was broken and despite this direct physical contact there was no DNA from the attacker on her neck. In other words, it’s possible to enter a room and subjected someone to a brutal assault and not leave any DNA traces.

Jessica Chapman and Holly Wells were murdered at Ian Huntley’s house in Soham. He admitted that they there were in his house and they had died there. However, the police didn’t find a single trace of the two girls. According to Curt Knox’s logic, Jessica Chapman and Holly Wells couldn’t have been at Ian Huntley’s house because there was no trace of them there. This is simple-minded reasoning and it clearly doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny.

Armando Finzi testified that he believed the double DNA was the murder weapon because it was compatible with the wound as it had been described to him. The police didn’t only test the double DNA knife as you falsely claim. A small knife was also taken into evidence from Sollecito’s bedroom. You clearly are ignorant of this fact. That’s the problem when you rely on a website that’s absolutely riddled with factual errors. I hope you’re feeling suitably embarrassed by your ignorance.

Amanda Knox was questioned for approximately for 2 hours and 45 minutes on 5 November 2007. Her questioning was perfectly legal and that’s why no court or judge in Italy has ruled otherwise. Knox herself admitted in court that she was given something to eat and drink at the police station. Contrary to Bruce Fisher’s claims that Knox described an imaginary dream or vision, Amanda Knox makes no mention of an imaginary dream or vision in her two witness statements. She categorically states that she met Diya Lumumba at Piazza Grimana and that they went to the cottage on Via della Pergola.

Amanda Knox’s 1.45am Witness Statement

“In order to complete what has been retailed before by means of precedent declarations made at this Office, I wish to clarify that I know and see other people who have also come to my house sometimes and who have also met Meredith and of whom I will provide the relevant mobile numbers.
One of these people is Patrik, a colored citizen who is about 1,70-1,75 cm tall, with braids, owner of the pub “Le Chic” located in Via Alessi and I know that he lives in the area near the roundabout of Porta Pesa. Tel. 393387195723, pub where I work twice a week on Mondays and on Thursdays, from 22.00 until about 2.00.
Last Thursday 1st November, day on which I usually work, while I was in the apartment of my boyfriend Raffaele, at about 20.30 I received a message from Patrick on my mobile, telling me that that evening the pub would remain closed because there were no people, therefore I didn’t have to go to work.
I replied to the message saying that we would meet immediately, therefore I went out telling my boyfriend that I had to go to work. I wish to state first that in the afternoon I had smoked a joint with Raffaele, therefore I felt confused because I do not usually make use of narcotics nor harder drugs.
I met Patrick soon after at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana and we went home. I do not remember if Meredith was already there or if she came later. I find it difficult to remember those moments but Patrick had sex with Meredith with whom he was infatuated but I do not remember well if Meredith had been threatened before. I vaguely remember that he killed her.”
The Office acknowledges that the statement stops here and KNOX Amanda is put at the disposal of the proceeding Judicial Authority.

Amanda Knox’s 5.45am Witness Statement

“I wish to relate spontaneously what happened because these events have deeply bothered me and I am really afraid of Patrick, the African boy who owns the pub called “Le Chic” located in Via Alessi where I work periodically. I met him in the evening of November 1st 2007, after sending him a reply message saying “I will see you”. We met soon after at about 21.00 at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana. We went to my apartment in Via della Pergola n. 7. I do not clearly remember if Meredith was already at home or if she came later, what I can say is that Patrick and Meredith went into Meredith’s room, while I think I stayed in the kitchen. I cannot remember how long they stayed together in the room but I can only say that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming and as I was scared I plugged up my hears. Then I do not remember anything, I am very confused. I do not remember if Meredith was screaming and if I heard some thuds too because I was upset, but I imagined what could have happened.

I have met Patrick this morning, in front of the Università Per Stranieri and he has asked me some questions, to be more accurate he wanted to know what the Policemen had asked me. I think he has also asked me if I wanted to see some journalists, maybe in order to know if I knew anything about Meredith’s death.- I am not sure if Raffaele was there as well that night but I clearly remember that I woke up at my boyfriend’s home, in his bed and that I came back home in the morning when I found the door of the apartment open. When I woke up in the morning of November 2nd I was in bed with my boyfriend.”

Posted by The Machine on 11/21/11 at 10:34 PM | #

Rimjob aka hugo aka ronco

I thought you have gone back to studies - please study a bit chemistry, physics, biology and not to mention, logic.  Please also study what is measurement, what is significance and what is called an error.  You also need to read a bit of statistics (basic ideas will do).  You also need to learn how to test hypothesis. Basic ideas about writing style will be an added bonus. 

One important thing to remember: when you give someone else’s version, please give them credit and provide the reference. Otherwise it is called theft: plagiarism. Look up some journals and see whether you can read and understand.

In short, you are wasting your time and my time. You are writing nonsense!

Posted by chami on 11/28/11 at 07:33 PM | #

Just to humor “rimjob” I just did 7 searches on google under various headings such as “Rudy Guede bloody footprint” and “Rudy Guede bare footprint” and “Rudy Guede bathmat” and such.  I can’t find a credible, official source that states that barefoot print on the bathmat is conclusively his.  IN FACT, almost all the links saying it’s his are “FOA” “injusticeinperuguia”. 

So court experts initially said it was Sollecito’s footprint.  I’m open to them being proven wrong, but I am not seeing the “proof”.

More than a few people accuse those who say it was Guedes of photoshopping, and this is on neutral forums where many people from both sides are there.  It’s also in comments all over the place.

I’m not sure who that footprint belonged to, but in no way has it been conclusively demonstrated to be Guede’s, and if it has, would someone please post a link for that.

Posted by JenE on 11/28/11 at 10:06 PM | #

Hi ronco, I’m with chami re specificity of your sources.

You wrote:

“The Bathmat with the bloody footprint. WOW even google this! Or ill do you one better, there are several pictures where you can compare the footprints for yourself! Do it! Please! See for yourself that it is Rudy’s print! Raf has hammer toes and you can see that Rudys foot prints match perfectly with the print on the bathmat!”

What is your source of information from which you conclude that any of the forensic traces represent Rudy’s bare foot-print?

What is your source of information from which you conclude that Rudy’s bare foot-print ” matches perfectly with the print on the bathmat!”? 

“Raf has hammer toes”

We knew Raf has hammer toe of his right foot; what is your source of information from which you imply that Raf has hammer toe of his left foot also?

Please be specific on your above sources; “Google-it” is not enough.

Posted by Cardiol MD on 11/28/11 at 10:32 PM | #

Rim Job,

Charlie Wilkes/Jim Lovering admitted that he had tampered with the FOA photograph of the bloody footprint - in other words, he doctored it.

Barbie Nadeau said Sollecito’s lawyers produced a photograph of the bloody footprint that appeared to be doctored.

Posted by The Machine on 11/29/11 at 09:00 PM | #

@ Starbucks aka Rim job
Why are you so taken with defending two sadistic murderers ?
AK and RS would still be unsavoury individuals even if they had never committed murder:
RS: had to be monitored by his university because he had been indulging in animal porn ,

-was arrested for possessing a dealable quantity of marijuana

- very clearly a drug addict

-had to be watched by his father like a little boy at the age of 23

AK: was photographed at a WW1 memorial museum toting a gun and laughing raucously , referring to herself as a Nazi

- hosted an out-of-control party with drugs and alcohol

-clearly a drug addict as well.

- showed no grief over Meredith´s death , shouted : “She f- bled to death ” instead .

This list is really endless. Defending those two is a waste of time , AK was very lucky she committed murder in Europe where there is no death penalty. So why are you sticking up for these two worthless persons ?

Posted by aethelred23 on 11/29/11 at 10:01 PM | #

Rim Job now aka Starbucks.

Sorry but you are being seen as an ill-infomed one-noter frantic to get on the site with false email addresses with a necrophiliac theory (for which you have zero proof) of Rudy Guede the black guy (who you seem to pathologically despise).

Please give it a rest. Read something other than Bruce Fischer who everyone here finds confusing and confused. His site is a minefield of wrong facts which even the defenses ignore.

Posters responded to all of your claims (you did notice, right?).  Please read all that is on the site here before making any more comments? And especially read this on Sollecito’s footprint here:

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/30/11 at 04:44 PM | #

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