Thursday, October 17, 2013

When You Get In A Deeeep Hole, Best To Stop Digging: Did Anyone Think To Tell Knox?

Posted by James Higham

[Florence courts in winter; how they might look when the appeal verdict comes down]

Not sure the Knox machine quite understands what trouble their charge is in.

She’s already done three years for calumny and is at it again.  Her recent slurs on Italian courts and the police have brought further litigation down on her head.

Then there is the little matter of the court award to Patrick Lumumba for false accusation of murder, which she has not paid to this day, despite earning huge amounts from her fiction work published in America.  Every one of us knows what happens when we default.

See how this stands up as her reason not to pay up:

I have already appealed to him to tell him that I didn’t go to the Police Headquarters with the aim of accusing him of a murder he did not commit. What was dragged out of me was dragged out from me without my wanting to harm him.

I only wanted to help and I was completely confused so that I didn’t know what was true and what was not true at that point. Therefore I didn’t want to harm him. I “¦ (MAXI-SIGH) “¦ His.. His name came out only because my mobile phone was there and we exchanged some SMS.

She says: “Vorrei che lui [Patrick]può capire in che situazione io mio trovavo.”  I’d like him to understand the situation I’m in.  Pardon?  A man wrongfully banged-up in prison and owed $80 000 by her should understand the situation she is in?

She was asked what happened and answered, “My best truth is “¦”  My best truth?  She invented an entire situation with Mignini which simply did not happen according to eyewitnesses, including her translator.  Simply did not occur that way.  She volunteered a statement but in the light of subsequent events weeks later, changes that, upon advice, to her being browbeaten.

Hence the calumny charges.

Main poster Stilicho adds:

Knox can’t even be honest about her time in prison. She was not in prison because she was wrongly convicted for murder but because of the calunnia she committed against Patrick and as a precaution against her fleeing the country or killing someone else before her trial was completed. She sang and danced and was frequently visited by politicians and other dignitaries. By all accounts, it was the most productive time in her life.

When confronted with her lies, she says, “I was confused.”  Sorry ““ courts don’t buy such things.  They deal in truth or non-truth.  None of this “it seemed to me”.  She interprets this real-world reaction as hurtful, hateful to Amanda.

In short, she appears to be emotionally or socially retarded, not fully understanding what she has got herself into.  Should she be released on a technicality, as Casey Anthony was, she still faces years inside because of the libel and slander which is piling up.  Her own people are also being litigated.  Peter Quennell:

We don’t see any sign that David Marriott or Robert Barnett or Ted Simon have the slightest clue about Italian law. They are all liable too for the felonies in the book and all of them could be charged too by the Bergamo judge.

Her advisors need to shut her up before she makes it any worse for herself.  In that accusation of Lumumba, she said she was there, in the next room with her hands over her ears because she couldn’t bear Meredith’s screams.  It was a clear description, clear enough for the police to arrest Lumumba and put him in prison.  The screams coincided with those the neighbours reported.

If one was to substitute Guede and Sollecito, whose bloodied footprint was on the bathmat, for Lumumba, that might be close to the truth of what happened, it would explain no DNA found of hers in the actual room..

Except that there are multiple mixed blood traces and her DNA twice now on the murder weapon, along with her panicked reaction when the cutlery drawer was opened, plus her words to her mother that they’d found a knife and that she was very worried about it.  Why would she need to worry if she wasn’t there?

She might be able to explain away the pattern of where her DNA was found on the knife ““ a stabbing grip near the blade ““ as a weird way of cutting vegetables.  Then there was Sollecito’s admission over Meredith’s DNA in the scratch as an accident when he pricked Meredith in the hand whilst cooking at his place.

Except Meredith had never been to his place.  And he still maintains that Knox was not with him that evening at his own home.

So, despite the sweeping statements by her minders of “no evidence”, which are then syndicated all over the world by their media entourage, inc the Wail, there’s actually copious evidence.  After you get past the conflicting stories, the cellphone activity and the witness identifications, there is still the matter of the mixed blood traces.

There was no blood the night before, by Knox’s own admission.  Meredith was out that early evening, the two had not been together.  These are the sorts of minor anomalies she can only explain with “it seemed to me” or “I imagined”.

Then there is the little matter of the hand marks on the neck, too small for the men although there were other marks too.

The horror for Amanda Knox, in her infantilized state ““ look at her handwriting ““ is that she cannot see consequences, not unlike a child.  She doesn’t understand that you can’t go killing someone and get away with it.  She’s constantly on about being seen as a good person, as every child and every adult would like and so many of us do not see it that way.

Like a child, she just wants it all to go away and that childlike appearance is what strongly drags in most people’s sympathy ““ here is a State and nasty people worldwide being cruel and mean to a young innocent.  Yet she’s getting on for 30 now and is no child.  And she still spreads the libel with no thought of consequences, just as she saw no consequences on that night, just the there and then.

The role of drugs cannot be downplayed in this effect on her mind.  She’s almost a poster girl for today’s youth and the early sex and drugs, with the dumbing-down at school at the same time.

She’s a mess and it’s hard not to sympathize with that and want help for her “¦ except for one pesky problem.  She’s a convicted murderess.

The reaction to these posts will be sympathy for her and anger at the bully who is writing it.  It should actually be disgust at what she did and neutrality towards the reporter writing the post.  How does it shift from one to the other?

Natural chivalry.  Yet in this sympathy for her, there is still the question of her victim choking on her blood once the screams had stopped.  And that is what maintains our interest in the case ““ it is unresolved as yet, it is close to the end.

She might get off on a technicality if her lawyers are good enough.  She’ll then go into that limbo state of Casey Anthony and all the other broken children of today, the blame for which many of us lay at the door of Them and their narrative.

For sure there is a sadness to it, which a new commenter, David Berlin mentions:

Knox is a hamster on a wheel, in a cage, endlessly condemned to repeating the same nonsense. In an earlier post I saw her as a character in Beckett’s “˜Play’ and the more she opines the more apt that seems. Endlessly repeating a story, fixed in her lines, unable to find an exit.

Commenter Goodlife writes:

Her life now does not seem all that different from her days in prison in that most aspects of her life seem to be under the control of someone else. But does anyone believe that she is any happier or more content now? She is now nothing more than a performing monkey, dishing out the script given to her by her supposed nearest and dearest.

An Italian commented:  “Young Italian actors should learn from Amanda Knox. She is a great actress.”

She’d stare at that comment in horror.  She uses the term bambina for herself, rather than ragazza, sheltering within this childlike status.  At 20.  At nearer 30 she is still doing it.  She said in an interview that she was la più piccola [the littlest] instead of la più giovane [the youngest].  Littlest evokes more sympathy.

She’s in a prison of her mother’s and her estranged father’s making.

She’s caught up in an international horror story and she’s the leading player.  This will always garner sympathy.

She asks why everyone hates her.  They don’t hate her ““ that’s child talk.  They are appalled by the machine she has behind her and their antics and believe she should take responsibility and start paying off the debt to the dead girl.

Meredith by name.


What do you mean, ‘might get off on a technicality’? Where has that come from? What evidence is there this may happen and what are the chances?

Posted by dadredge on 10/18/13 at 12:26 AM | #

Hi dadredge.

Amanda Knox won’t get off on technicality and there is no evidence that this will happen. The Italian Supreme Court has made it impossible for Judge Nencini to use the same legally-flawed arguments as Hellmann.

Posted by The Machine on 10/18/13 at 12:38 AM | #

James is in the UK where the courts are tougher and that is only smart hedging. He knows this time it will be done right.

He did say “if her lawyers are good enough” which knowing James is a sly dig at them. Not one of the main 4 on the two teams has ever won a Cassation case. Plus leaks suggest that they know the perps are cooked.

All they have left is closing arguments where (ahem) they will yet again explain how, really, it could have been 2-3 other guys, who didnt leave a single trace.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/18/13 at 12:48 AM | #

Every time I look at this case and then read the comments I am reminded of the Walter Scott line -Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive
Knox has weaved a web, a web of lies and deceit, and now she’s trapped herself in her own web, and there’s no way out.
People who commit the most heinous of crimes cannot be allowed to walk among us, they have forfeited that right, and so on Nov 26th I expect the full weight of the Italian courts to increase her original sentence, to pay Patrick Lumumba, and added time for the lies in her book. Then there will be justice

Posted by forres on 10/18/13 at 02:30 AM | #

Then we get the fight over extradition - if Italy requests it.

Posted by thundering on 10/18/13 at 05:08 AM | #

I’ve been following this site for several years, but this is my first comment. Believe me, AK should be behind bars for life—but I would caution against too much enthusiasm that this will happen. Knowing the American mentality and it’s incessant xenophobia, I’d say that the chance of her going back to jail is less than 1%—I really really hope I’m wrong. The chance of RS going back to jail is far better, but not that great, about 50/50 would be my guess. Again, I hope I’m wrong; but it seems rather self-evident that those who have money or access to money are above justice. After years of following this case, I see nothing contradicting this phenomena.

Posted by Ritaville. on 10/18/13 at 06:00 AM | #

Has anyone sees this new article by retired AP journalist and news desk editor Robert Heller? It is so filled with errors I just couldn’t believe it was written by a journalist. I posted a comment to straighten the record, do have a look if any one is interested. I keep reminding myself, it happens all the time. But, just as people were lied to to support war, they are now being lied to support another travesty by creating political support against extradition.

Posted by Ergon on 10/18/13 at 07:00 AM | #

A great point, Amanda should stop talking. She thinks the power of her voice will help her case, but it is actually weak and lacks authority. No command voice.

She does much better with the written word, but she gives away the game there, too, and puts things on the record that contradict facts courtesy of Harper-Collins.

It was the tone of her spoken voice saying things like “Ewwegh yucky” and talking in circles rather than giving clear answers that partly proved guilt in her first trial testimony. None of her talking on the stand was to her benefit, IMO. Her voice showed her true self and the Italians aren’t as dumb as she thinks.

She darn sure better stop talking about Mignini.

The more she talks the more she reveals her cruel indifference to Patrick, and her determination to hedge and her refusal to shout “I didn’t kill Meredith”. She replaces such expected honest statements with the fanciful “let’s find my innocence” and “her truth”.

Then she calls herself a soldier. She says she and Raffaele are fellow soldiers. I’d say not infantry or armor, more likely psy-ops. In the fight for zipping one’s lip Raffaele the once silent seems to be the winner. He may yet have the last word.

Amanda and Raffaele fought, yes they did but they fought to vanquish truth from the courtroom. Give ‘em a bronze star. They think they’ve earned a purple heart. Fighting the truth, well they were diligent in that action.

The hardest fight Knox ever fought was to stay silent four years in Capanne and she only did it then to avoid cellmate violence and to hoard her story to sell later, complete with notes and My Prison Diary.

Posted by Hopeful on 10/18/13 at 07:49 AM | #

Dadredge, I take your point - she’s more than likely to be convicted; but as Peter says:

“James is in the UK where the courts are tougher and that is only smart hedging. He knows this time it will be done right.”

That was the essence of a reply to one of the readers at my website who asked: 

“I am puzzled why the Knox defense team invested so much in a PR campaign instead of a strong legal council in Italy.”

I replied, though you might disagree:

Saskia – thanks. On the Knox question – they’re trying to sway public opinion in America and around the world so that extradition will be opposed by the US govt.

They know the court this time round is only looking at the evidence as laid down already, in the light of the Supreme Court directives and nothing else [unlike the second appeal where the judge refused to admit the evidence and treated the bedroom as the sole murder scene, which the SC subsequently annulled].

The attitude this time around is - look, we’ve already argued it all out and the court has already decided this and that.  There is a slight possibility [in defence eyes] of a surprise Casey Anthony type verdict in the case of Knox but not in Sollecito’s case most like.

The Knox machine hopes that the court of public opinion will prevail over the court’s judgment. To me, it’s a highly risky strategy, as it is spawning defamation case after defamation case. There was one filed some days back.

And in Italy, defamation by a known defamer is almost automatic prison, as pointed out at TJMK/PMF. As some wise heads have said, the Knox team clearly don’t understand the way Italian justice works.

Sollecito’s team [father and lawyers] is falling over itself to ingratiate itself with the court.  Therefore S will appear on Nov 6, “showing the court respect”.

If the Knox machine had played it nicely, she’d possibly get away with association with the crime or dimished responsibility or whatever.  The two men would then go down. 

But they chose the belligerent path and now it’s all or nothing.  Hence the rash of interviews, their last roll of the dice.

Posted by James Higham on 10/18/13 at 10:00 AM | #

The Supreme court judgment is superb- clear and to the point. The translation is equally great- eminently readable. I recommend everybody to read it once- it is riveting read. And unlike other legal documents, this one is brief- should I say very brief?

The guidelines issued by the Supreme court is clear and concise. And this shows that the court has got the points right. The Florence court has got this message loud and clear. There is unlikely to be any confusion any more.

The question here now: are there any wriggle room for Knox? If yes, what are they?

I am not a lawyer but I do not think that even a great lawyer can invent a wriggle room for Knox at this stage. Unfortunately money can do only so much. And the Italian judges appear to be stubborn and resistant to political influence- else the case would have closed much earlier.

I really feel sad: “In short, she appears to be emotionally or socially retarded, not fully understanding what she has got herself into”- so true.

Posted by chami on 10/18/13 at 11:00 AM | #

The very first thing I would have done with my “blood money” if I were truly innocent (besides not writing a book at all) would be to have paid Patrick his due immediately for my false accusation and the stress and heartbreak it caused him, his wife and young son. 

Then I would have donated the rest to the Meredith Kercher fund, because she really and truly was a trusted good new friend in a foreign country, and be damned with what my family has to go through financially. 

Then I would appear at my trial, knowing I am doing what I can for the justifiable time I spent in prison, and the knowledge that I am not guilty of this awful crime. 

If I were innocent.

Posted by zinnia on 10/18/13 at 11:25 AM | #

I agree with you chami…I feel sorrow at this point, especially as it needn’t have been this way.

Hope against hope that Raffaele may break ranks. I know it’s improbable, but it really would be for the best.

Regarding an extradition request ( if there is one) : it would be very poor for international relations should such an order not be complied with.

Many people in the UK would be very angry for a start.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/18/13 at 11:29 AM | #

Well said, zinnia…what awful advice AK has followed or decided upon.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/18/13 at 11:32 AM | #

Knox will go back to Italy to serve out her remaining jail time but that will not stop the books, articles and internet blogs promoting her innocence.

These will be preponderantly authored by americans because they know that the domestic audience loves to read about establishment conspiracies and feed it’s paranoia about perceived anti-americanism in the world. There will always be the temptation to make a buck out of this market.

But just maybe the time will come when a reputable american journalist or author with some weight and untainted by involvement in the case to date will write a factual account of the case and the evidence, including an analysis of the PR campaign and the media’s reaction to it.

Something like Gerald Posen’s “Case Closed” on the Kennedy assassination which chilled the conspiracy theorists for a long time.

It’s sad but I think it will take an american-authored book to have that sort of effect in the USA and the time will be ripe for this after the conclusion of this case.

Posted by James Raper on 10/18/13 at 01:01 PM | #


I agree 100% what you say. She is perhaps being taken as a milch cow by the PR agents.

Posted by chami on 10/18/13 at 01:03 PM | #

@ James Raper.

Hello James, It is not clear the the American public are really that interested or swayed by the PR machine around Knox. There is a book to be written on how the media and PR spin is allowed to be played out in an ongoing murder trial process.

The truth is what matters to everyone. Not selling tabloid copy. Yes an analysis of the PR campaign and the role of the media influence on court proceedings is sorely needed.

Watching this case it has been an eye opener on the woeful bias and sheer laziness and stupidity of some reporters. Like Dantes 7 rings of hell at the last and lowest ring you will find there among the lowest of the low a journalistic hack who lacks any morals whatsoever.

Posted by Olliebear on 10/18/13 at 01:43 PM | #

Important post by James Raper on the very strong prospects for Knox’s extradition, following on several other posts by others:

Failing that, Italy via Interpol can label Knox (and Sollecito) wanted fugitives throughout the world. No fugitive withstands that for long, even multi-millionaire ones.

And many Americans have been extradited to other countries, especially to Italy, that is what the mutual agreements are for. Italy is an exceptionally important allie and many have been extradited to there.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/18/13 at 03:28 PM | #

An honest book? It would take a bold high-profile legal talking head to get out a book that a publisher will pay for and promote.

There is at least one and probably two very well known legal commentators interested. Not (yet) Alan Dershowitz, but at that level.

Both would eclipse James Q Kelly who is the main one and almost only pro-AK/RS now - paid to be so.  It might not be at all difficult to attract others.

Pro-Knoxers like Geraldo Rivera etc etc have dried up; it is noticeable how most legal commentators have cooled on Knox in light of Cassation.

Among other things they really want to continue their Nancy Grace gigs on CNN, and she has scathingly said Knox is guilty.

No recent sign of Preston, now that Spezi is headed back to prison for his role in their crazed MOF book.

What interests the legal talking heads as much as anything is the dirty tricks and misuse of PR and assault on an entire country and its (excellent) justice system.

How Hellmann was bent etc. The huge money. The centrally managed lies to the public. The new mafia angle. The old MOF angle, which fueled the demonization of Mignini.

All of that seems the compelling untold story.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/18/13 at 03:45 PM | #

James Raper on extradition - good, need to nail this one.

Posted by James Higham on 10/18/13 at 03:57 PM | #

This is an excellent post which makes many insightful comments about Knox’s mentality, which I think has always been clearly pathologically narcissitic.

Pleas could anyone answer a query I have about the knife, though? How many DNA or blood traces of Knox’s have been found on it?  Prior to whatever is found in the current tests, I mean.  Sorry if this has been clearly mentioned in another post - I came to the case late and there is a lot of (excellent) material to read through on this site so I may have missed that.

Posted by Maartje on 10/18/13 at 04:02 PM | #

@ Maartje

Before current tests, 7 stains, (36)A through G were labeled.

Current tests are on 2 stains labeled (36)H & I.

Avoid ‘traces’.

Posted by Cardiol MD on 10/18/13 at 04:19 PM | #

@James Higham

Than you for your main post. I especially like “...She interprets this real-world reaction as hurtful, hateful to Amanda…In short, she appears to be emotionally or socially retarded, not fully understanding what she has got herself into”.

As you say, absolutely no understanding that there will be consequences from her actions (even now, with the denigration of the police and court, she still doesn’t get it).It would be interesting to know how it got to this stage without her infantilism being picked up earlier i.e. in her upbringing. Seems it may have been put down to “quirkiness” - shame there wasn’t an intelligent adult around who could see it was more serious. Nevertheless that’s all academic - general revulsion at the horrific murder means there’s only one priority at present - she has to go back behind bars for a very long time if “justice” is to mean anything.

Posted by Odysseus on 10/18/13 at 04:27 PM | #

@ Cardiol By ‘traces’ I did not mean anything loaded, simply another word for small stains ie small as they are on the knife rather than large eg the footprints.

So that is 9 stains in all on the knife and 7 were AK’s? Sorry, I am confused about the knife, nothing else, so it’s the knife I am looking for clarification on.

Posted by Maartje on 10/18/13 at 04:35 PM | #

Perhaps it has been over looked but the demise of
Silvio Berlusconi is just another nail in Knox’s coffin, plus of course Sollecito’s. Berlusconi was an embarrassment to Italy and in consequence the Italian legal and Government systems fondest wish, is to put that era behind them and move on to be seen as squeaky clean. Bad news for Julia Bongiorno as well since dirty legal tricks will be under very close scrutiny. Also I see from the Knox web sites that an American lawyer (sic) has joined the Italy defense team. Are we supposed to be impressed with this? Another one giving advise is retired judge Heavey. I am overwhelmed. 

@ Maatje
I’ll leave that one for Cardiol since he knows far more than I do about genetics than I do

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 10/18/13 at 05:06 PM | #

@maatje, yes, it can be confusing.

See Massei Translation, pages beginning 264 (EXHIBIT 36 (THE DOUBLE-DNA KNIFE)), and 287 EXHIBIT 36, TRACES A AND B.

Page 287: “No criticism was advanced concerning the results of the analysis regarding trace 36A, and Dr. Sarah Gino, consultant for Amanda Knox’s defence *team+, declared that she agreed with the interpretation in that regard provided by Dr. Stefanoni, and noted that the genetic profile obtained “abides by all the rules of good laboratory practice and good interpretation‛.

Page 293: “…the analysis of trace 36B, which detected the presence DNA attributable to Meredith, appears to be completely reliable.”

Locations of the 7 Knife-Stains:

A: Amanda Knox’s DNA. On Knife-Handle, near cutting-edge of Blade, non-logo side.
B: Meredith Kercher’s DNA. On Blade, non-logo side, near tip of cutting-edge.
C: No biological profile. On Blade, logo-side, near tip of blunt-edge.
D: No biological profile. On Knife-Handle, near Butt, non-logo side.
E: No biological profile. On Blade, logo-side, near tip of blunt-edge.
F: No biological profile. On Knife-Handle, nearer Blade than Butt, logo side.
G: No biological profile. On Blade, logo-side, nearer tip of blunt-edge than stain C.

Posted by Cardiol MD on 10/18/13 at 06:17 PM | #

Source of statements that stains 36C-36G provided No biological profile:

Massei translation page 287:
….. Of the seven findings *tested+, only two provided a biological profile, those indicated as specimens 36A and 36B.”

Posted by Cardiol MD on 10/18/13 at 06:47 PM | #

Thanks Cardiol, for the details.

About the exhibit 36 trace B, it was complained that the DNA is too small and it was considered as low copy number (LCN). I am curious to know whether the defense observers were present during this analysis and whether they raised any objection during the test or much later in the court?

Was there any complaint or objection from the defense observers that protocols are not being followed (during the test in the lab)? Or, did they bring it up only during the court hearing?

The number of peaks that match is more important than the strength (height) of the peaks. Of course the peaks must be much stronger than the noise level (which appears to be quite low in the graphs).

Posted by chami on 10/18/13 at 07:33 PM | #

Thanks for the tech data.  I like how this side of the argument sticks to the data as accepted by the court.

Posted by James Higham on 10/18/13 at 08:01 PM | #

@Cardiol Thank you, I really appreciate that.  Does ‘no biological profile’ mean the stain could have been a non-biological stain such as rust etc?  Or does it have some other specific scientific meaning?

Posted by Maartje on 10/18/13 at 08:56 PM | #

Speaking from an American point of view, I will offer a little criticism and ask an open question.  There has been a lot of time spent here on this website and various comments about prosection for what is called “calumnia” in Italy but what we might analogize to something in American once known as Criminal Libel.  In the US, (and I suspect the UK and former Commonwealth countries) this sort of charge is a relic of the past and issues of libel and slander are left to civil suits. 

From a prosecution point of view such issues are a waste of time.  Jail time is almost unheard of, and if the defendant is convicted of a more serious substantive charge then nobody really cares that a defendant lied.  Frankly, all criminals lie to some degree, so it is viewed as being a nuisance. 

Do you think Mignini or the cops in Perugia are going to lose any sleep over the fact that Amanda lied about them?

Ha !  spend a day with the cops in any American city.  And frankly I doubt that anybody is going to waste any time or energy prosecuting a calumnia charge if AK and RS are convicted of murder.  If they are somehow acquitted, nobody is going to have any passion to pursue it.

In other words, it sounds like a chippy charge whether it is in Italy or the US.  I would like to see more discussion about the homicide and less about the nonsense written in some relatively obscure books that probably did not make any money for the publishers.


Posted by Gonzaga on 10/18/13 at 09:16 PM | #

On the last point, no doubt AK and RS made some money on advances paid by the publishers, but as for the books themselves, you would have to look in the “Bargain Bin” at a book store to find them.

A little free advice for Mr. Lumumba.  He needs to hire a collection attorney in the UK (as opposed to the US).  There are legal procedures where he can garnish assets of the international publishers owed to AK and RS.  However, if the books were losers, then there may not be much by way of royalties to garnish.

Posted by Gonzaga on 10/18/13 at 09:29 PM | #


I understand your point. I’m not a lawyer thank goodness but surely the calumnia conviction was the result of AK maliciously fingering Lumumba.

The matter you are specifically referring to - the published and broadcast lies regarding AK’s treatment by prosecution and police - is a separate issue. No doubt all criminals do lie to some degree but my guess is few have had the wherewithal or the chutzpah to engage a major PR firm to do it for them, on an industrial scale.

It’s a serious issue because it brings justice into disrepute in my opinion ( criminals normally lie just to save their own skin - no more no less - and don’t feel the need to attack the whole institution of justice, foreign or otherwise, in banner headlines); so it is important and not just a matter of Mignini or the cops losing or not losing any sleep. Just my view.

Posted by Odysseus on 10/18/13 at 09:56 PM | #

Good points everybody…but, remember the Scales of Justice balance themselves. Amanda will pay her Karmic price…even if she remains free.

Posted by Bettina on 10/18/13 at 10:21 PM | #

Hi, Gonzaga. We’re in a lull right now till Nov. 06, when we’ll be right in the thick of it with discussion of DNA and the rest of the evidence.

Nov. 06 also is when Frank Sfarzo’s trial for defamation begins in Florence. The PR campaign behind Amanda Knox’s attempts to evade justice is big news, and will become even more so when the extradition battle begins.

Posted by Ergon on 10/19/13 at 01:33 AM | #

@ Ergon
Right… But of course if the US refuses to extradite it won’t stop there at all but will continue. I can’t see the Italian government simply rolling over this time and excepting such a thing. This could drag on for years as I suspect it will. The Italians won’t except anything less since they will lose even more face than the last two times when the USA refused to extradite. That has always stuck in the throat of the Italians. This time I expect a different ending because Knox being a civilian rather than either US pilots or CIA operatives and since she is exposed to extradition laws between the two counties I think it will go through. Hope so anyway.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 10/19/13 at 04:41 AM | #

Hi, Grahame, I believe that as long as we counter the lies and keep Meredith’s memory alive the PR campaign will go no where in that regard.

Posted by Ergon on 10/19/13 at 05:58 AM | #

Hi Ergon

You’re right and I along with everyone else will be right there for as long as it takes. The collective forces of evil expect us to get tired and lose interest. They couldn’t be more wrong. I’ve been here from the very beginning and I will be here to the bitter end even if it takes years.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 10/19/13 at 06:22 AM | #

@ Gonzaga

Calunnia (calumny) is seen as a very serious crime in Italy, as it is somewhat like the biblical “bearing false witness”.

It is not only an offence against the person, as are slander and defamation in the common law tradition, but it also a crime that attacks the foundations of the justice system.

That is my understanding as a layperson.  Perhaps one of the lawyers could explain this better.

Posted by Tiziano on 10/19/13 at 02:29 PM | #

Lance Armstrong dug a deeeeeeep hole too, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, money, caught, guilty, life sentence.

“He made the lie so enormous, so all-encompassing, that he couldn’t dial it back. His only choice was to go forward and make it even bigger.” So he carried on cheating, winning Tour after Tour.
Stripped of those seven titles, pursued by lawyers seeking to reclaim prize and sponsorship money, Lance Armstrong’s reputation as a sportsman is now in ruins. He has been banned from competitive cycling for life”.

(Quote from BBC website).

Posted by Urbanist on 10/19/13 at 04:03 PM | #

Casazzione took a poor view of the calunnia, which was not only upheld, but was reconnected as significant to the murder :

“the conviction for the charge of calunnia stands, but the denial of aggravation in finding it not-linked to the murder is annulled.”

We have yet to see the full significance of this.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/19/13 at 04:56 PM | #

A comment by our respected poster Gonzaga at 10/18/13 at 02:16 PM gave a misleading definition of “calunnia” as some emails from Italy and commenters above have pointed out. 

We have tried to explain calunnia correctly in maybe a dozen posts here (others tried on PMF). Calunnia is an obstruction of justice by someone involved in a case. It is not simple personal defamation, and it is investigated and tried by prosecutors and not by personal lawyers.

I’ll add here soon the references to the relevant codes.  The Italian system plays exceptionally fair by defendants - automatic appeals, right to speak to the court, sentencing report - and another thing assurred them is that prosecutors will not try their cases in the court of public opinion.

You wont ever see police or prosecutors on TV or leaking things to their advantage, at most 1-2 restrained press conferences to run over apparent facts.

But defendants are placed in the same boat, and the criminal code is clear:  If they or those associated manufacture evidence, or accuse officials related to the case of criminal acts (as the two books do), they can be charged with additional crimes.

The main perps who have attempted to smear the system or those in it in recent years have all been mafia-associated (or politician-associated!) and were made to quieten down by the threat of court action. Those instances were pretty rare

Right now, this is the only vilification campaign of its kind in Italy, and perhaps unique for its vehemence.  It seems to be the first one taken global via the Internet and resulting in millions and millions of hits. 

Obstruction of justice is also a crime in the UK and US Even possible rogue prosecutor Nifong was treated pretty respectfully and it took a long time for media to accuse him of a crime (rightly or wrongly). 

Although Dr Mignini has most often been targeted with false charges, he has no hand in pursuing these charges, which are being handled by Florence and Bergamo prosecutors. If he wanted to, he could not close them down.

There are also some laws in all three countries about not profiting with money from a crime. While AK has money from the book, she hasnt paid Patrick his award, a possible contempt of the Supreme Court.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/20/13 at 02:16 PM | #

I really do thank you for that definition, the difference in the terms, Peter.  The obstructing justice part I’d not thought about.

Posted by James Higham on 10/20/13 at 03:36 PM | #

Thanks a lot James. It might be worth adding a list of just some of the ways that American prosecutors have it easy compared to Italian prosecutors.

In the US, it is relatively easy to get into those positions with many elected; no mandatory education or performance hurdles; no equivalent to the PIMs who must agree to every step; ability to speak out and to go on TV; no mandatory defense appeals even on zero grounds if requested; no perps speaking out from the floor of the court with no cross-examination; no sentencing reports which leave them naked!

While it is not entirely for these reasons that the US prison population is proportionally 7X the Italian (Italians are very law abiding and do have tough police) they do play a factor. American prosecutors have it maybe easiest in the world (add in pro-prosecution Nancy Grace on CNN etc) and Italian prosecutors maybe the hardest.

Beats me why anyone would be one! Calunnia is one small sop in their direction.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/20/13 at 04:50 PM | #

@chami on 10/18/13 at 12:33 PM | #

Your 5 Qs:

1.  Were defense observers present during 36B test?
No – a Defense tactic.

2.  Did defense observers raise any objection during the test?

3.  Did defense observers raise objections during the court hearing?

4.  Did defense observers object during the test in the lab that protocols are not being followed?

5.  Did defense observers object that protocols were not followed during the test in the lab during the court hearing?

Posted by Cardiol MD on 10/21/13 at 08:36 PM | #
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