Monday, October 14, 2013

Carabineri Labs Might Prove Fourth And Conclusive Scenario For The Mixed DNA Samples In The House

Posted by Peter Quennell

Lab work is believed to have continued today in the absence of the defense observers, and will continue on and off through to October 30th.

The defense observers may not have a further role at the laboratory. Most or all of the analysis leading to firm attributions of the DNA will be done by the Carabinieri team electronically.

It is that final attribution that the defenses are widely rumored to be so terrified of. That Knox’s DNA is there seems a given. The cliffhanger is whether Meredith’s DNA is there also.

Another possible mixed trace. If so it would be the sixth one.

Judge Massei did not arrive at a full scenario for how the five mixed blood traces at the crime scene could have been created. He described what was found by crime scene investigators and moved on.

After the 2009 Massei trial some further analysis was conducted. 

With great help from Luciano Garofano’s DNA chapter in Darkness Descending and Barbie Nadeau’s and Andrea Vogt’s excellent reporting, we posted a comprehensive update mid-2011.

The locations of the five mixed traces at the crime scene are as follows.

1. Bathroom near Meredith’s room:

  • On the drain of the bidet
  • On the Q-tip box located at the ledge of the sink
  • On the edge of the sink

Elsewhere in the apartment:

  • In a luminol-enhanced bare footprint in the hallway outside Kercher’s room
  • In a luminol-enhanced spot found in Filomena Romanelli’s room

Three sources for Knox’s blood have long been suggested: some bleeding from her ear, some bleeding from a possible nosebleed, some bleeding from the open scrape on her neck. .

All three of them could theoretically have been inflicted by Meredith as she struggled with the trio to save her life. None seem to explain why there were repeated MIXED traces.

That has remained a huge puzzle. But now we are looking at a fourth scenario: that Knox cut her hand with the top end of the blade as she stabbed at Meredith’s neck.

That could explain once and for all where Amanda Knox’s blood came from AND why it was mixed with Meredith’s blood. It happened right there.

[Click for larger image. Handle as from the blade direction. Sample is apparently from gap on sharp side.]


Here’s Andrea Vogt’s tweet:

“Leaks suggest DNA on knife shows #amandaknox genetic profile, but there is another profile being studied. Too early to interpret.”

Posted by The Machine on 10/15/13 at 01:08 AM | #

What a picture!

Never seen that one before and what facial expressions!

Tells a thousand stories.

Is that the actual knife CDV is holding?

Posted by thundering on 10/15/13 at 03:04 AM | #

Another mixed trace of Knox and Meredith would surely be the end of any plausible defence for Knox, if any more evidence were needed.

And I can’t see that extradition would be prevented by claims of a lack of due process, the Italian system is remarkable in it’s diligence.

Posted by bobc on 10/15/13 at 03:36 AM | #

Below courtesy of Ergon at PerugiaMurderderfile dot net are some close-up images of the real thing taken by the Scientific Police.

See the serrations all along the cutting edge? It seems those might match the knife imprint on the bed. Stay tuned.

[Added} Below those images are four more, showing the evidence items, kindly sent by Jools. Click all for larger images.





[Added] More shots, kindly emailed by main poster Jools. They show the original evidence enumerations. The enumeration for the mixed trace if it is a new one does not show here.  Locations of the 7 Knife-Stains:

A: Amanda Knox’s DNA. On Knife-Handle, near cutting-edge of Blade, non-logo side.
B: Meredith Kercher’s DNA. On Blade, non-logo side, near tip of cutting-edge.
C: No biological profile. On Blade, logo-side, near tip of blunt-edge.
D: No biological profile. On Knife-Handle, near Butt, non-logo side.
E: No biological profile. On Blade, logo-side, near tip of blunt-edge.
F: No biological profile. On Knife-Handle, nearer Blade than Butt, logo side.
G: No biological profile. On Blade, logo-side, nearer tip of blunt-edge than stain C.





Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/15/13 at 04:04 AM | #

Hi, Peter, yes, we were very pleased to post these photos up at PerugiaMurderFile.Net to share with the pro Meredith community. And thanks for the work you did all these years with TJMK.

Posted by Ergon on 10/15/13 at 05:00 AM | #

Below is the logo of the manufacturer of the knife which was made in Italy. The company is Marietti.

Can you spot any Marietti kitchen knives (coltellos) online, and especially something resembling this knife?

Is it the middle one here?

This one here?

If so that knife is out of production. No wonder they felt they had to put it back.


Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/15/13 at 05:02 AM | #

Hi Ergon

The ones you cleverly obtained were quite high-resolution (5 megabytes).

I dropped the size down for these images so the PDFs would load fast. These are only about 1/10 the size and not quite as clear.

High resolution PDFs are available to you for your projects any time.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/15/13 at 05:07 AM | #

Anyone can see from the photo of the knife above that a careful attempt was made to clean the area near the handle (third photo from top in Ergon’s post).

If I understand correctly, the current sample was collected from this region (near the 14.5 cm mark on the scale) which is very difficult to clean.

I do not think that the knife was cleaned with bleach as concentrated bleach reacts with metal and I do not see any sign of that.

Posted by chami on 10/15/13 at 06:24 AM | #

It is very informative to see these pictures, thank you everybody.

There has been speculation about - if this is the murder weapon- how it came to be in the cottage, and why.

Fresh vegetables, salade, and also whole fish (as, apparently, were favoured as food) all require very sharp and pointed knives for their preparation. They also usually require a serrated edge.

Lots of kitchen knives wouldn’t therefore be very efficient for the purpose. Often out of half a dozen knives, only one may really work.

This one looks especially ideal for these things. One can imagine it might have been borrowed from one kitchen to another at some point.

Did AK have any cooking/preparation skills at that point in time, or was it only RS, being more familiar with Italian foods?

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/15/13 at 06:28 AM | #

One more thing Nell at dot net just reminded us of,  Judge Nencini reserved the right to order further tests.  Keep tuned right here.

Posted by Ergon on 10/15/13 at 07:10 AM | #

I am certainly staying tuned.

When Hellmann granted permission for ‘tests’ on the knife Knox burst into tears.

I have always held that it was not a reaction of sheer joy and relief as the PR would have us believe. 

I believe that she reacted out of fear because she knew full well that a) this was the murder weapon and b) that there was every possibility that something damaging to her claims of innocence would be found.

Looks like the Carabineri know what they are doing and are getting on with it in a professional manner.

Kudos to them!

Shame the original investigation didn’t do this.

Posted by thundering on 10/15/13 at 07:36 AM | #

I would not trust any of these leaks and advanced speculation about the test results.

These Carabiniere scientists have been sworn in and we will have to wait. Am sure the scientists involved would not tell their own mothers what has been found to date.

I believe Judge Nencini would not tolerate leaking information before he has read the report and makes his announcement.

Posted by Mason2. on 10/15/13 at 08:46 AM | #


Can only agree. Will have to wait on official report.The problem is that rumour, speculation and all feeds the spin.The FOA loopers along with the Knox PR team jump on anything to spin lie after lie.
Hopefully this circus will come to a halt soon.
Always thinking of the Kercher family.Their dignity in prevailing for justice for Meredith is the real story and inspiration here. The story of how the media hype and spin to sell copy, regardless of the fact that it is a murderers voice they broadcast is distressing for everyone familiar with this case.

Posted by Olliebear on 10/15/13 at 12:35 PM | #

@olliebear and Mason2
So true. Patience and quietness are called for.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/15/13 at 12:59 PM | #

Thanks Peter for another great post. I would like to add another possible source for the mixed blood traces that where found. Amanda could have been bleeding from the mouth.

She may have cut the inside of her lip or gums in the struggle with Meredith. A cut in this place will bleed a lot, but will also heal pretty quickly.

Thus explaining the lack of visible wounds that Amanda showed in the days after the death of Meredith.

Posted by carl on 10/15/13 at 01:16 PM | #

The 2 Carabinieri scientists who have been appointed to test the knife are Major Andrea Berti and Captain Filippo Barni. Please please please let them find the truth on this knife.

Posted by Hopeful on 10/15/13 at 06:13 PM | #

That knife is really frightening looking.  I mean it is huge.  I rarely use knife that big - maybe for carving a roast?  Certainly not for ‘fish’ or ‘pasta’ as they seemed to usually eat. 

If used as the murder weapon, surprised that AK or RS would not have been very visibly shook up at seeing it up close like that in court.

Also was thinking about AK’s freaking out reaction at the villa, to the police showing her that knife drawer, why there, as opposed to RS’s place, if that’s where the knife came from?  Or was she already in jail when they took his knife?

Secondly, wondering whether apartment owner would not have been questioned whether those marks were already on that knife, prior to RS moving in, those scratches near the handle?  How long had he even lived there?

Still seem to be so many unanswered questions.

Posted by believing on 10/15/13 at 07:38 PM | #

Knox and her supporters seem to think that a negative DNA finding will get Knox off the hook. (Proof, indeed, of the brainless twits who blindly believe her lies).

Far from it - nothing that the current lab analysis uncovers will change the multiple existing DNA mixes of Knox’s blood with that of Meredith or the stack of other non-DNA evidence that screams her and Sollecito’s nailed-on guilt.

Roll on the day when Knox and Sollecito are back behind bars again and for a VERY long time.

Posted by Mealer on 10/15/13 at 08:21 PM | #

Tonight in Italy Knox appeared via Skype on the very popular crime show Porta a Porta.

We dont yet have a transcript of what she said (there were a couple of advance quotes) but Andrea Vogt is tweeting about the show here:

Sounds like the other guests (as one would expect on that show) aint exactly wedded to Knox.


Please read these from the bottom up:

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 6m

#amandaknox on Porta a Porta: I’m paying for mistakes of police and investigators who didn’t want to admit they made mistakes.

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 12m

Maresca on Porta a Porta: Crime scene is is not just Meredith’s room, but also nearby bathroom where suspects washed, cleaned after.

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 24m

In pre-recorded Porta a Porta skype intvu w/ mom at her side: #amandaknox (in Italian): “I’m just like you. Just a person like any other.”

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 39m

#amandaknox via Skype on Porta a Porta: “I was found innocent. There is not a trace of me in the room where my friend was killed.”

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 43m

Francesco Sollecito: I am scared. My son is terrified. But my son cannot have a future if he hasn’t resolved problems w/Italian justice

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 49m

Porta a Porta: Brindani (Oggi): If #amandaknox DNA is on knife, it shows it was not washed. Bruzzone: DNA may not be decisive factor.

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 59m

The African man falsely accused (Patrick Lumumba) on Porta a Porta: An innocent person could never have done what #amandaknox did to me.

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 1h

Porta a Porta has huge plastic model of Via Della Pergola 7, where #meredithkercher was killed. RS will be present Nov. 6, father says.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/16/13 at 12:29 AM | #

This is an excellent article about understanding the double DNA knife evidence:

Posted by The Machine on 10/16/13 at 02:39 AM | #

Thanks Pete.

‘In pre-recorded Porta a Porta skype intvu w/ mom at her side: #amandaknox (in Italian): “I’m just like you. Just a person like any other.” ‘

This is a statement without meaning to someone who is interested in and/or has studied psychology.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/16/13 at 02:40 AM | #

On Andrea Vogt blog second from the top.

Point is if this was just a simple burglary then the perps would not have washed up and taken such pains to clean after themselves.

This is just another piece of evidence that the people responsible were Knox and Sollecito.

Boy! I am checking this site every hour it seems just in case there is anything new. By the way Peter wonderful article thank you always.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 10/16/13 at 03:20 AM | #

@ Ergon :

Hi, Peter, yes, we were very pleased to post these photos up at PerugiaMurderFile.Net to share with the pro Meredith community. And thanks for the work you did all these years with TJMK.

I would like to join in your Thanks to Peter, the TJMK Staff, as well as you, the PMF Staff, and the Translators, and everyone else, for all the work done on Meredith’s behalf !

I am looking forward to hearing the results from the testing of the knife in the photos above.  Ah, and will that be the same day that Raf will make his first appearance at court in Florence—IF he shows up ? 

And IF he does, it is going to be a very interesting day ... I’ll bring the pop-corn !

Posted by MissMarple on 10/16/13 at 06:37 AM | #

Perhaps I am stating the obvious, the knife is useless for any kitchen work- the blade is severely damaged. The right question to ask: how?

When new, the same knife could have been used to shave the beard (only perhaps a couple of times though). This is a chopping knife and sharpness is essential for proper action. Half of the blade, from the tip onwards, have been misused (see the large pictures posted by ergon above) and the knife is best discarded.

My innocent question is: how did it happen? Why there was no attempt to sharpen it back to the original glory (this is easier said than done)?

Did the damage to the edge of the blade happen during stabbing? Who knows? Who can tell?

Posted by chami on 10/16/13 at 03:22 PM | #

“Amanda Knox today claimed she was not a femme fatale…” (Italian TV interview, as reported by the Daily Mail)

She’s dead right there. Apart from anything else, proper femme fatales don’t traditionally have her overpowering body odour, noticeable to the first police to arrive at the villa.

Truly when someone stinks on the inside they invariably stink on the outside, though they may remain blissfully oblivious..

Posted by Odysseus on 10/16/13 at 03:47 PM | #


Good point. Yes, I would say the damage was so incurred!.

The alternative hypothesis, that RS damaged it shaving his beard,  is not supported by the evidence: wimp RS has no beard to speak of plus he was usually so out of it he would likely have inflicted a fatal wound to himself.

Posted by Odysseus on 10/16/13 at 03:55 PM | #

The state of Florida USA has executed William Happ for the 1986 rape and murder of Angela Crowley. For more than 20 years he proclaimed his innocence and many believed him.

Before he died he said this ’ I wish to offer my most sincere and heartfelt apologies, not only to those concerned for Angela Crowley but also those who i deceived and allowed to believe in my innocence’.

May William rest in peace.

Posted by Mason2. on 10/16/13 at 04:20 PM | #

Hello Mason2

As has been pointed out   “Everyone on death row is innocent”

Even if they have admitted culpability there is always some mitigating factor a la Jody Arias….

“I was abused and acted in self defense.”

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 10/16/13 at 04:33 PM | #

One of the problems nowadays, when many people are under-educated (meaning education in its fullest sense), is that unfortunately they often don’t realize they are under-educated.

Hence there is a vast under-estimation of the skills, fine judgement, logic, analytic ability and so on of the highly trained professionals who have earnt their position to administer justice.

Everyone may have a right to their own opinion in a free-thinking society, but everyone’s opinion is not necessarily of equal value, or of equal validity.

One of the results I am hoping for is a restoration of respect for and belief in the Italian justice system. What has happened in ‘rubbishing’ it has been disgraceful. May this soon be reversed.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/16/13 at 04:47 PM | #

@Grahame Rhodes

Yes, the position of a (malevolent) narcissist can often be,  ‘Well, they (the true victim) shouldn’t have been in the way of the knife’ etc. ‘shouldn’t have made me do it’.....

The inability to take responsibility.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/16/13 at 05:27 PM | #


True. One could of course say that it’s basically a US phenomenon. More precisely a PR-led US phenomenon. To the extent there has been UK rubbishing of Italian justice it seems likely it’s a result of the same PR spin emanating from Seattle that has informed American opinion.

Nevertheless it certainly is disgraceful whatever the origin and all media must have deep responsibility not to collaborate in the dissemination of material that’s intended to pervert the course of justice. Even in the latest Italian TV interview, Knox is still rubbishing her prosecutors. In any sane society there would surely be strict limits set on how much the media can promote undermining of the institution of justice, particularly in the middle of an appeal.

Posted by Odysseus on 10/16/13 at 05:36 PM | #

@Seeking Understanding
I totally agree with restoration of respect and belief in the justice system. All we ask for is fairness, but instead all we have seen is an uneven playing field and a shifting of the goalposts, add to that the most disgraceful slandering of a country,it’s people, and it’s culture

Posted by forres on 10/16/13 at 05:51 PM | #

May William NOT rest in peace - a last minute apology just before execution for such a heinous crime does not erase 20 years of misery for that poor girl’s family, let alone what he did to her.  There is no way to justify or apologize for such an action.

Posted by believing on 10/16/13 at 06:01 PM | #

Like Chami said, the first thing that struck me about the knife was how damaged and scratched the blade was, in addition to the lateral scratches close to the handle.

You absolutely cannot do this sort of damage to a stainless steel knife with a regular kitchen sponge or brush, so they must have used a steel-wool pad and applied significant pressure with it.  The question is why.  What could possibly be on a knife (unlike a pot or pan) that’s so hopelessly stuck, you need to scrub it with steel wool?

I think it’s pretty obvious that what they were trying to get off that knife was Meredith’s blood specifically, rather than generic blood.  Blood comes off easily anyway, and as long as the knife is clean, no one cares that it carries traces of fish or chicken DNA, or of your own DNA, or anyone else’s DNA who may have used the knife for cooking.  But it’s clearly pretty important to remove all DNA traces if you just used it to murder someone.

A Knox DNA sample isn’t particularly relevant in itself, since she can always say she handled it during cooking and dishwashing.  I am, however, very interested to hear more about that mixed trace.  Mixed blood DNA, in particular, is very difficult to explain away because people don’t usually bleed together in normal circumstances (especially on knives that one of them never touched in her life).

I think that the lie Sollecito wrote in his diary, about Meredith pricking her hand with that knife, tells us everything we need to know - that Meredith did come in contact with that knife, that both of them know it, and that they are terrified of what forensic analysis may reveal.

Posted by Vivianna on 10/16/13 at 06:33 PM | #


There are many more points that bug me. For example,

1. Knives are expensive and people take care of them because it is simply part of good housekeeping. If you use steel wool or other harsh abrasives, you risk the chance of making it blunt permanently. You can guess (from the photo) that the cleaning marks are fresh. How fresh? I need another knife for reference!

2. Half of the blade is so badly damaged that it is no more usable. Why clean such a knife at all? Obviously, there is something on the knife you do not want others to see or notice.

3. I am curious to know (a real question to FoA at large) why they did not find any fish or chicken or plant DNA on the knife. Surely AK is a good cook and made dinner many days?

4. The question about the DNA match: we need to concentrate only on the set of probable people who were likely present on the fateful night. We need not bother if the profile matches with some tribes found in ... We need to focus the match between the quarter dozen people and not as suggested by FoA lawyers.

5. It is grossly inappropriate to consider any single evidence in isolation (and we are doing that!) and find global solutions that can match and /or explain all the evidences taken together. This is nothing but a single thread and we need to consider the fabric that is the total crime scene.

Posted by chami on 10/16/13 at 07:17 PM | #

You are right about the damage, chami. The blade edge is badly notched, as well as these steel wool type grooves, and so would no longer cut properly - for instance if one tried to cut bread or pizza.

It does make one wonder how it came to be like this.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/16/13 at 07:44 PM | #

Hi SeekingUnderstanding, Odysseus and Forres:

On SeekingUnderstanding and her great comment on building and preserving trust in experts and institutions.

This whole raging PR effort has been as destructive as any assault on a government I have ever seen engineered by a few private citizens. It is a terrible, terrible precedent.

Taking experts and institutions down endemically could lead to a decay of the whole world. I once posted that Fishers daughter should be worried that her dad works so hard to undermine vital institutions that would determine her entire future. He didnt get it (so whats new) and bleeted that I had insulted his daughter (really).

There is another root cause for the cynical in the world today beside a shortfall in some dimension of education, however.

In a few vital areas (unrelated to any area of justice) experts and expertise are quite phony. I have economics myself but I think economics has really jumped the shark and economists getting into the heart of government is proving a disaster.

Now low growth is expanding everywhere like a cancer because the right expertise is not being brought to bear and nothing kills trust in government more than for example the bitter negative-growth experiences of south Europe.

Driving this US national budget impasse at core is in fact negative growth in the “red states”. I feel very sorry for them and cruise them incessantly.

They have been sold a dog since the time of Reagan: that but for this “huge bloated” government (of which Obamacare is declared a part) their lot in life would be spiraling upward.

But guess what? A NY Times survey has just shown the paymasters of the fiery Tea Party movement, certain titans of industry, are having strong second thoughts about their out-of-control creation.

My guess is that the human race comes out ahead but it sure looks right now like a squeaker. We are doing the right thing here for the “good” side.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/16/13 at 08:03 PM | #

I remember that the mentally challenged at Ground Report said at great length that the Italian police were incompetent because, among other things, they thought this knife looked suspicious.

Their resident lunatic ‘Denver’ said this proved stupidity of the police. so this begs the question

What is a hunting knife doing resting among all the other cutlery? So lets see

Hmm…... Knifes forks Spoons. Hunting knife. nothing suspicious here.

Point is Sollecito is hooked on knifes and I suspect this was one of his favorites since it has been used so much.

Conclusion. Sollecito is as “thick as a brick,” or to quote a old British colloquialism, “He’s as thick as two short planks.”  No wonder Knox gravitated towards him and vis versa because he was easily manipulated just like the mentally challenged at Ground Report.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 10/16/13 at 08:31 PM | #

Very true, Pete.

We need to be able to rely on any ‘expert’ really being someone with integrity. Not easy to ensure, but we need to try.

Every profession needs to keep to high standards, and have accountable procedures.

I have been very impressed with Cassation, because of this - their attention to the faulty logic for instance.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/16/13 at 08:31 PM | #

Could the Porta a Porta summarised by Andrea Vogt in the tweets above lead to early arrest warrants?

If Judge Nencino saw the Porta a Porta he will be giving a lot of thought to his options. Negotiating is ruled out by law

One thing nobody thought to point out on the rather stupid show is that Knox is is ALREADY being investigated for identical false charges.

EVERYTHING she says now is added to that “treasure trove” of actionable accusations. It is seriously dumb what she is doing.

Penalties for these felonies vary; but if one has a prior conviction, some prison time is almost inevitable.

Knox has committed at least one very serious felony in her book with the accusation that Mignini was not only at her interrogation but leaning on her to frame Patrick.

(Why did Porta a Porta not bring that out last night? Or the lamp behind the door? Or the blood here and there? Mussing was their usual magistrate, Simonetta Matone.)

We’ve had analysis of Sollecitos book done and for the false accusations of crimes in that he could see another 2- 10 years.

Even their lawyers are seeing culpability growing as they are given full credit for helping to write the books.

They all made themselves scarce last night, notice that?

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/16/13 at 10:53 PM | #
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