Thursday, July 10, 2014

Are The Rank-Amateurs With Their Hooks In Knox Dividing Into Two Flocks Of Sheep?

Posted by Peter Quennell

Confusion Increasingly On Display

Publicly berating the Sollecitos, Kerchers, Italy and Europe has had a detrimental effect on Knox’s public persona?

So says Sophie in the forum text above. Smart take. But Clive Wismayer himself has posted some pretty wild accusations against Italian officials which absolutely dont help Knox at all. People like him should go.

Click here for more of those postings by those supposedly helping Knox. (Guede did it alone? Really?) The postings are a month old, but we hear the internal disputes are now way worse. Three obvious problems stand out.

1. The Sollecito Headache

They dont know as a group whether to try to hug Raffaele Sollecito and his family closer, or to nuke them, in the FOA’s usual mode. Some now incline one way, some the other, and it is splitting them apart.

The Sollecito backlash almost certainly isnt done yet. They dont like Knox at all, and further talk of resisting extradition and further demonizing of Italy and justice officials hardly helps them, and will see them back in front of the press.

In no circumstances will Bongiorno ever again let Sollecito get attracted back to the people who have their hooks in Knox - Bongiorno took the harder line at the press conference, and burying the very damaging claims stuffed by the Knox people into Sollecito’s book is sure on her radar now.

2. The Bloodmoney Headache

There’s rarely much money to be made legally out of trashing murder victims and their families and justice officials as the Bruce Fischers have set out to do. Amanda Knox did get a windfall payment out of her hapless book - but is THAT turning into a two-edged sword…

There’s nothing like a huge pot of money unfairly distributed to make people who feel used and unrewarded walk off. So says Clive Wismayer in the text. Knox is clearly acting cheap, maybe because she sees no career ahead, and may have squirreled much of her bloodmoney away for the reasons given here.

Some like Ted Simon seem to have had a very big payday, the lawyers and experts and Marriott and travel and hotels have all had to be paid-for. Media sources tell us that none of their reporters get within miles of Sollecito or Knox without a greedy hand coming out.

And Knox still has to pay the damages awarded to Patrick for maliciously wrecking his life, or risk more time inside.

Knox is to be charged for the false claims in her book on the same lines as Sollecito and the damages awarded could be huge. Knox’s publishers have their own liability, but may have been misled, and if they are made to pay damages, they could set their lawyers on Knox.

3. The False-Labels Headache

That “guilters” smear used freely in the text above is an albatross around their necks. It stops them seeing straight and being fully informed and (especially) trying to convince in reasonable terms.

Competent American lawyers and PR would have stopped Knox supporters painting themselves into such a corner long ago on the grounds that it just doesnt work. They dont know their enemy as a result.

What they are really up against is not only people posting translations and analyses on websites (people much more qualified than themselves) but also all the forces of justice in Italy and 90 percent of the population who clearly can see guilt.

The pro-Knox conspiracists are in fact a very small faction. The in-group at the core is a dozen or two at most. Perhaps a few hundred now who might lift a finger for Knox.

In contrast, those who see a case for guilt - and who revere the victim and Italy and its officials and system - are not a mere faction at all.  Between them, they are huge. Good smart reasonable people who are very well informed and are certainly not driven by hate.

A lot of what websites like this do, in a media-created vacuum of hard facts, is to simply pass on reliable information from Italy in competent translations of key documents and timely and comprehensive reports.

This “guilters” smear has blinded them to that, and so “garbage-in-garbage-out” and paranoid suspicions and ranting language have become their plagues.

And with no real help, Knox faces 28-plus years.


The Knox knot looks to be twisting itself into a hangman’s noose snared by its own lasso. “Giving them enough rope” ....goes the sayin’ is working!

Every attempt FOA has made to recover from the swinging wrecking balls are working to pollute their “cause” rather than roll it in a favored direction.

“Swing away, Merrill!”  The light may be on, but no one is home. Maybe Amanda Knox has left the building….

Posted by Professor Snape on 07/10/14 at 05:21 PM | #

Hi Peter,

That name “Stoner” rings a bell from many years reading here on TJMK.  Could you tell me who she is, if anyone besides a garden (weed) variety of Knox-ite?  Also, who is Wismayer, e.g. a lawyer or PR person?


Posted by all4justice on 07/10/14 at 05:33 PM | #

Welcome Snape! Who tied the FOA Seattle faction in knots when Sollecito came by touting his book.

Welcome all4 justice.also. I’ll have to go look later for something on Stoner.

Clive Wismayer posts as AngloLawyer on several websites. I find him silly and weak and dont think he’s worth Knox paying a dime. That Ground Report post I linked to shows he has not the slightest clue what really happened when Knox accused Patrick on 5-6 Nov.

He seemingly tried to keep his real identity a secret. We made no move to find out, but as so often he gave himself away. This happened, it is from PMF dot Org, where his erratic antics often keep them amused.

[thoughtful] By the way, is “Clive Wismayer” the same person as Jackie’s own personal bugbear, Anglolawyer? I have to say that from our interactions on the Math on Trial thread, I found him pretty darn reasonable, viz. the above.

[Hugo] Yes, he accidentally outed himself on Sharon Feinstein’s thread. As he explained it, the login procedure confused him and he entered his real name as his username and then couldn’t fix it. Clive tends to overestimate his own powers relative to those of others, imagining that anyone who disagrees with him must be stupid. (He now says he knows more about Italian law and procedure than Popper, for instance.) His impersonation of a DNA scientist was a bit surprising.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 07/10/14 at 06:20 PM | #

Hi all4justice. Here is some more info on Clive Wismayer. Hugo on PMF dot Org provided the following information previously about Clive Wismayer:

Clive has a BA from Leeds, but not in law, and a postgrad LLB from Chester College of Law, which is not reputable—that is, it has no reputation. He has worked, if that’s the word, in landlord-tenant litigation (usually for landlords) and lately ‘consumer credit’. He’s appeared before a magistrate I happen to know in a property tribunal case, appearing alongside his brother, who claims to be a property developer but is actually an accountant who acts as enforcer (in terms of actual threatening behaviour, set out in the judgement) for a property developer called Crowther, who happens to be Clive’s chess-playing partner.

Their side did win that case—the tenants who did not want to allow Clive’s brother access for inspections because he’s a menacing and obnoxious character were told that legally they had to—but the written judgement made very plain that this was a letter-of-the-law thing and nothing to do with the rights and wrongs. It also made plain what the tribunal thought of the Wismayers: not much.

live is best known in England, however, for representing what might politely be called a controversial loans company, Logbookloans, which had its lending licence revoked by the courts last November in a case brought by multiple bilked clients. He has also served as co-director of another company, now dissolved, with one of the directors of that same loan company. Since November the webpage for his sole practice has disappeared and he only appears as consultant for another firm, Peacocks. He seems to have done little but play chess and post incessantly on the Perugia murder case, about which he knows less than my cat. (And I don’t even have a cat.)

Posted by The Machine on 07/10/14 at 10:06 PM | #

Hi Pete,

I had no idea Wismayer was anglo lawyer, thanks for the heads-up & thanks to Hugo for providing background on him.

Things are not looking well at all for Knox & I can see the rift between FOA/Cult of Knox & the Clan Sollecito getting worse & worse. There really is no honour among thieves after all.

Posted by Corpusvile on 07/10/14 at 11:10 PM | #

If that’s true Peter then it is wonderful news in the box at the top.  Also I did notice the same thing. The Ground Report employees such as fredly/hikertom/Denver, whatever, have not uttered a word.

Also you may note that Steve Moore hasn’t done anything for about four months and Michelle has been reduced to one-liners, but then that’s understandable since it’s obvious she is unable to hold a sentence for anything longer than a few seconds.

Bruce Fischer…......Nothing. So just perhaps your breaking news has some merit. If it’s true then watch the fur fly. Mind you, even if it isn’t then the whiff of it alone will cause several people on both sides of the Atlantic paroxysms of terror..

Poor duped Knox supporters though, waking up in the middle of the night and wondering “Could I have been wrong?” Time will tell

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 07/10/14 at 11:34 PM | #

Hi Corpusvile

You are welcome. Thanks to the Machine for the quotes. We like to know who their people really are as they go to great lengths to puff themselves up as gods in their own eyes. We get plenty of tips.

But we dont have a history of outing on the lines of Fischer - in fact the only one we ever did out was “Bruce Fisher of New York” years after he began slashing at our efforts to post the truth.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 07/11/14 at 12:09 AM | #

Well well Since I wrote this I wasn’t expecting the screaming coming from the Knox supporters. Honestly the deranged meltdown is wonderful.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 07/11/14 at 12:22 AM | #

Is Ted Thomson’s report on Ground Report for real? It is hard to see how the Knox-Mellases can stick it to RS while at the same time pull Amanda Knox back from the fire.

That sure would be some trick. But what does ring true in the report is that Curt Knox is very angry. See this:

Curt Knox has been very angry and agitated according to our sources. Amanda Knox is also furious. Raffaele Sollecito said on July 2 in Rome ”that the evidence showed Amanda was not with him at his home at the time of the killing of Ms Kercher”…

The latest strategy from the Raffaele’s defense is basically canceling Amanda Knox’s alibi during the night of the murder, a move that infuriated Curt Knox and left Amanda without an alibi during the night of the murder.

This pig-headed man is just the kind to suicidally double down.

He has a titanic anger which peeks out now and then. It may well have afflicted Amanda as a child and it drives the whole tone of the PR. Knox says in her book there’d been years of pain.

It’s possible that had Curt Knox been treated when a judge ordered it, Knox might have grown up mentally quite normal and lived at home away from drugs during her college days.

She could have departed for Italy within a proper study-abroad program with proper fellowship funding to keep her going. Poor Meredith might still be alive.

And we would not have had this seven years of massive personal destruction driven by a need to avert gazes from the kind of man Curt Knox is.

Discussed with our posting psychologist SeekingUnderstanding and she thinks there may be something here.

None of this is a secret in Seattle. We posted on it here. Some might trade years off Amanda Knox’s sentence if Curt Knox got hit with equal years inside.

The Italian police know a lot of this, but its for Amanda herself and her own defense to bring it out if it helps. Her interests are not identical to Curt’s.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 07/11/14 at 04:39 AM | #

Sometimes people say that the ‘best’ (most convincing) way to lie is to nearly tell the truth. ie: some elements of the story ARE true, crucial parts not!

Yes indeed - rage and anger has had far too much pivotal influence over making decisions in these last 7 years (at least).  Hot rage against the cool logic of justice…



Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 07/11/14 at 09:45 AM | #

Well I went to the Chester College of Law (as far as I am concerned there is only the one) many moons ago. It is what it is, a crammer preparatory to taking the Law Society’s solicitor’s final qualification entrance examinations. Nothing wrong with that but of this ilk Chester and Guildford were considered the most prestigious because they were owned and run by the Law Society itself.

Whether Anglolawyer went to the same establishment, or another by the same name, I don’t know and I’m not particularly interested.

As for Ted Thomas….I mean… a reality check everyone?...please.

Posted by James Raper on 07/11/14 at 02:00 PM | #

Hi James:

Chester College sounds okay. You’re good! We never posted discussion about it here; and this is the first time we’ve had a mention of Wismayer apparently aka AngloLawyer.

There’s no main post on Ted Thomson’s claims (you mean him right?) and in the box we did say “We are observing with an open mind” aka “We are watching and waiting”.

This is not law we are observing, it is mind-games between a family in Italy and a family in the US. Everybody knows that and takes every claim with a pinch of salt.

The Knox camp has been very quiet and so far as we know are not at the center of the substantial war on Twitter, which btw we have not posted upon.

Sooner or later there will be some kind of next move. Ted Thomson might already have blocked off that one, which I think was a failure waiting to happen.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 07/11/14 at 02:44 PM | #

So, here we are, the “truth” at last: Meredith the violent knife attacker, who brought all this upon herself because of her wicked ways, and managed to get brutally killed while the objects of her fury didn’t even get scratched (except for Knox’s bloody nose & her “hickey”).

One more quiet tear for Meredith and her family, and for what they have to go through. I have a feeling this will be over soon, I’m here waiting and savoring every bit of what’s going on.

Posted by Bjorn on 07/11/14 at 04:18 PM | #

So… Meredith picks up the knife (which just ‘happened’ to be there), then Raphaele fights and kills her with the same knife.

Really explains how neither M’s nor RS’s DNA was found on the handle of the said knife; really explains why Ms. Knox’s was found on the handle, and handle groove, therefore twice on this knife.
Very amateur story-telling!

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 07/11/14 at 06:35 PM | #

Thanks for the welcome very nice to be here.

Fischer on IIP seems to think the Thompson article on GR is a parody article designed to take a swipe at the Knox cultists.

To quote the not-so-great furrier:  “That article is a blatant attempt to mock Ground report and Amanda’s supporters. The author is attempting to show that GR will attempt to print anything meaning that the articles posted by supporters are no different than the garbage he posted.

The difference being of course is that we back up our words with facts”  Thats Brucie the Coat on IIP & I had to laugh (albeit kinda bitterly) at his last sentence btw.

The funny thing is, is that what the article speculates on is exactly the kinda self serving rubbish that Knox WOULD come out with, so I have no idea if Fischer is simply outraged or attempting damage limitation.

I’ve read a piece by “Ted Thompson” before though and it was highlighting all the evidence against K& S, so who knows?  It’ll be interesting to see if the article causes more fall out between both camps though.

Posted by Corpusvile on 07/11/14 at 09:55 PM | #

Hi All, I know I’ve not posted in quite some time. Just a quick update: the ground report piece seems to have been taken down.

There were comments coming thick and fast through the last few hours, and I just checked in again now to do the loon-head-count and it’s gone.

Posted by TruthWillOut on 07/11/14 at 10:20 PM | #

Hi Corpusvile and TruthWillOut

We copy all Ground Report posts. We’ll see then if (1) the Ted Thomson post appears elsewhere, and (2) any of what he predicted plays out.

Other than this yankning of the story, theres precious little response to Sollecito & Bongiorno and the huge wave of media stories that resulted. Knox still looks flat-footed. 

The concern in Seattle now might be that there is no smoke without fire and Ted Thomson has some sort of proof for what he claimed.  We’ve witnessed what appeared to be concern with eavesdropping devices before.

RS and AK chatted in undisclosed places, the Sollecitos when they flew to Seattle met with the Knoxes and Mellases only in undisclosed locations, the book-writing was pretty secretive.

Fischer: “The difference being of course is that we back up our words with facts”. Yes. Invented facts. Of the 150 posts on Ground Report he engineered we dont see one full accurate.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 07/11/14 at 11:00 PM | #

Hey Pete,
There’s a piece on Thompson’s article on Dunno i that’s gonna end up getting taken down also, but it’s still there for now.

Posted by Corpusvile on 07/12/14 at 12:46 AM | #


Interesting that we’re not hearing too much about the Sollecito press conference from the likes of CNN or ABC. Although, I agree with many posters, once the press smells blood, there could be a feeding frenzy - we’ve seen it before.

The Knox/Mellas team have been playing a dangerous game with the Press and the Cult, also known as FOA. At what point, do such nut cases also become a problem.

I too have been wading in from time to time on their comments and these people are barely literate not to mention hysterical. Do you think they understand concepts? I wouldn’t want them on my side!

I have no doubt that the Sollecito family wants to turn the American public against Knox. If he’s going to jail, they figure, so is she. They want to ensure that her lily white persona is dragged through the mud and I think the CCTV image, the drugs story and the press conference were all intended for this purpose. If their boy goes to jail, she too must be extradited goes their thinking.

I had to laugh watching an old Katie Couric interview with him when his book was released and how he insisted he would stand by Amanda no matter what. Hmmm, seems his tune has changed. How anyone could not notice there have been several versions of that night is beyond me.

All of Kercher’s friends were put through hours of questioning but seemed to be able to get their stories straight. They have a tad too many versions I would say.

Posted by Dora Maar on 07/12/14 at 12:58 AM | #

Pretty pathetic that Ground Report caved, but they are dying a slow death financially under the weight of all those fanatics.

The score was 150 misleading and often defamatory posts up against only the three good ones by Ted Thomson. Now its 150 to a mere two.

And yet a relative of Knox was tweeting that Ground Report is full of hate. Well, it is, but not against Knox.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 07/12/14 at 01:39 AM | #

Please retweet my tweets to Charles Mudede and Nancy Grace. I think you will like them. Thanks.

Posted by The Machine on 07/12/14 at 03:59 AM | #

Ted Thomson’s post is now back up on Ground Report with an Editor’s note advising that ‘the sources were deemed sufficiently credible to warrant publication.’

It seems the race for a mitigation based sentence reduction might have started!

Posted by MHILL4 on 07/13/14 at 03:23 AM | #

Hi MHILL4 and Corpusvile:

That tipoff was much appreciated. A new breaking-news box appears at the top and we will have a post or two next week.

What Ted Thomson reported as venting within Knox Enterprises is somewhat credible if one reads Knox’s surreal email to Judge Nencini.


It is also credible that Knox Enterprises is becoming politically radioactive.

Aspromised, more on this later.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 07/13/14 at 03:12 PM | #

Hi Dora Maar

An excellent take on Knox v Sollecito. He did try to be “at one” with Knox during Katie Couric, but she made laughingly obvious that she knew he was lying, and cut the interview short and avoided saying goodbye to him.

During 2012 after Hellmann Sollecito foolishly sought to tie himself to Knox, quite possibly thinking he could move to the US and somehow escape jail after Act III. He is said to have proposed to her, shortly before proposing to the impressive Idaho woman Kelsy Kay.

That few months of puppy-dog behavior came at a very high price, though, which he and Bongiorno are finally realising: the damaging nonsense which Knox Enterprises shoveled into his book, for which he and Andrew Gumbel are now being put on trial in Florence.

From 2007 to 2012 he and Rudy Guede both demonstrated they carried big chips on their shoulders about Knox. All of that rather confirmed that a crazed Knox very unexpectedly delivered the death-blow to Meredith and they had not ever bought into that.

And now in 2014 Bongiono is trying to re-establish distance between the two, to give Sollecito something of a break very late in the day. But the RS and AK books are not helping - in fact, are what make that impossible.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 07/13/14 at 03:36 PM | #

Amanda Knox and Raffaelle Sollecito are game over. But it is no more than they deserve, they should spend life in prison .

Posted by aethelred23 on 07/14/14 at 10:05 AM | #

Hello aethelred
It would certainly be a relief to no longer be subjected to their TV interviews, and the publication of their ‘books’ and other divisive antics.
Both they, and society, will be safer.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 07/14/14 at 01:30 PM | #

Post A Comment


Where next:

Click here to return to The Top Of The Front Page

Or to next entry Knox Interrogation Hoax #9: Officer Moscatelli’s Recap/Summary Session With Sollecito 5-6 Nov

Or to previous entry Spitting In the Wind: Sollecito News Conference Backfires On Him AND Knox - What The Media Missed