Meredith May Not See Justice (Yet) But She Will Leave At Least Three Legacies
Posted by The TJMK Main Posters
So much of human organization is messy and very hard to make better. She would have found that. But somehow, often in a terrifying lurch, systems do sometimes tend to get better.
These better systems between them benefiting millions may all be attributed to Meredith. More than 99% of humanity can achieve in a lifetime.
1) Perugia is a safer more thriving place now
This is a repeat of our post of 9 April 2010 - there has been a mayor-change, but the broad safety and economic trends continue.
Meet Wladimiro Boccali. The mayor of Perugia.
A year ago when Mr Boccali ran for office (video above) it was in the context of a city-wide desire for prosperity, public safety, support for the police and the court system, the enhancement of Perugia’s reputation, and the clamping down on drug dealing and student excesses.
A mood that very much flowed from the shock of Meredith’s passing. A sense that certain things had gone too far.
Since then, Mr Boccali has been in the Italian national news almost daily, and he is coming to be seen as the kind of political leader Italy could really use in a turbulent future.
He is in the news again right now, because there was a riot in the main piazza of the old city by some drunks late last saturday night.
In part inspired and encouraged by good town leadership, Perugia’s economy is now one of the more thriving city economies in Italy. Perugia’s median IQ is extremely high (Perugia is probably one of the smartest cities in Europe) and a lot of very advanced research goes on there.
Perugia’s town administration does many caring things, such as the special city council meeting for Sonia Marra.
And seemingly attracted by all of this, people are moving to Perugia in droves - its population is increasing at double the national growth rate.
So. Meet the new Perugia. Meredith’s own qualities, writ large.
Since that post Perugia and the university have recognised Meredith by way of a scholarship and a one-day seminar.
2) American universities acted to stop future Knoxes
Knox behaved grossly irresponsibly in heading to Perugia under-funded, intent on drug-doing, and with zero intention of seriously studying.
The University of Washington and many others realised they could have huge liabilities if they did not distance themselves a lot from such loose cannons in future.
In October 2009 we reposted this report by Andrea Vogt which described the initiation of measures many American universities have now come to implement.
Mirroring a nationwide trend, the University of Washington is overhauling how its students and professors interface with foreign countries….
The UW study abroad experience today involves much more oversight than it did two years ago when Amanda Knox left on an unsupervised European adventure that quickly degenerated into a nightmare.
When Knox, who is on trial for murder in Italy, left her familiar U-district environs in late summer 2007, she embarked on her own independent study in Umbria with very few guidelines or institutional oversight.
She arrived in the tolerant student melange of Perugia, a vibrant college town with temptation at every turn and many paradoxes (drug deals and party plans are often made on the steps of the cathedral).
A month later, the honor student’s pub-crawling, pot-smoking college shenanigans had taken a very serious turn and she was being hauled off to the Capanne penitentiary, where she remains today, pleading her innocence as the trial and controversial accusations against her plod forward.
Once her troubles began, the university tried to offer support, but had very few official guidelines to follow for responding to the kind of complicated legal-judicial matter Knox faced.
It’s different now….
In the wake of several negative overseas episodes, officials are busy raising awareness about the positive impact the UW is having worldwide and taking steps to improve communications, regulation and emergency preparedness for its students abroad.
Compared with two years ago, international education officials are more closely tracking who, where and what study-abroad programs involve. The university has new rules:. The department chair has to sign off on the program. Insurance is required. So is a cell phone. No program money can be used to buy alcohol, just for starters.
“There’s a much more formal process now,” said Taso Lagos, a UW professor who teaches international communication and manages a study-abroad program in Greece. “With administrators that are very aware, with lines of communication open and policies in place if something happens.”...
The UW’s growing commitment to international education—- even in a budget crisis—is reflected in some developments. [UW Vice Provost for Global Affairs Stephen Hanson] was named a vice provost in January, and in the spring, the UW dedicated an entire wing of the Gerberding Hall administration building to growing an international mission and profile.
This year, a travel security and information officer is coming on board to oversee emergency response and preparedness, as is Peter Moran, a new director of international programs and exchanges who previously worked at the Fulbright Commission office in Katmandu, Nepal.
New guidelines are being put in place to streamline communications, ease financial transactions and institute mandatory training for faculty taking students abroad. The Global Support Project, a rapid-response team with one person from each branch of the central administration, takes on cross-disciplinary international challenges.
Such reforms aren’t unique to UW.
Universities across the country are examining how better to organize study abroad to meet blossoming demand from students (and prospective employers) for foreign experience. Many are turning to independent service providers whose business it is to contract housing, health care or niche risk management services dealing with legal, financial or public relations crises when things go haywire abroad…..
Though the university bore no responsibility for any of the events Knox became entangled in, media across the world continued to mention the University of Washington—whether it was because of character witnesses who were her college buddies, reports of wild off-campus parties Knox attended in Seattle or her studies while in prison.
3) Italy’s justice reforms will be nudged hard
Polls have show that though Italians admire and trust their justice system and especially the brave people within it (over 100 have died fighting mafia) a majority would like some rebalancing toward victims and families.
Justice reforms are now on the national agenda. What happened in Rome yesterday to deny Meredith justice is stirring Italy and seems certain to impact them.’
Court days to flow continuously? Some backing off from automatic appeals? No juries at the second level? Prosecutors and judges to be allowed to speak out more? Maybe in lieu of some of those onerous sentencing reports? Limits to defendants talking without cross-examination in the courtroom?
These are not extreme, they are mainstream in the common-law system, and they would speed Italy’s up, make it fairer, and cost less (a lot less!).
All incredibly worthwhile. For one so young, in death Meredith may come to help millions for the better.
Thank you Pete for your positive help attitude. Meredith did show that attitude too. She could have thought: “What a mess, well, let’s start . . .”
I am once more ashamed of being Italian.. Sorry Meredith. AK will burn in hell.
I was out with a friend in Glasgow, Scotland last night when the verdict came through on the 10:00p.m. News. I misheard because of the pub noise and thought they had said upheld rather than acquitted. The knot I felt in my stomach when I realised my mistake was akin to the one I felt when I heard the OJ verdict. I was on holiday in Miami when that verdict came through live and the celebrations by the hotel staff were sickening.
I rarely feel personally involved in things like this (OJ being the last time) but Meredith’s case touched many people and the callousness of Knox, Sollecito and Guede towards a clearly much loved person was grim reading indeed. A rare and beautiful soul was extinguished for absolutely no reason whatsoever. I’m not religious in the slightest so my only hope is that her killers find no peace of mind, no friends, no respite, no succour and no safe haven. They truly are the worst that humanity has to offer.
I served on a jury twice in the UK, as foreman both times. Once we got it right and once we got it horrendously wrong. The legal system truly is a lottery and poor Meredith’s family bought a ticket and got no return. I can only wish her suffering family fair wind and a, perhaps forlorn, hope that they find some kind of peace. Their beautiful daughter will live in the memories of those of us who were on the right side of this thing. Her killers will be held in contempt by all normal, decent people.
A heartfelt thank you to Peter Quennell and the other contributors to this site. It has been a beacon for truth and understanding from its inception and I have great admiration for the enormous effort that has gone into maintaining both the content and the integrity of the site.
The shrill, harpy voices of the FOA morons will die down soon. I will personally never reply to another one of them in any online forum. Time to move on and leave them to their cess pit methinks. As my old grandad used to say “if you wrestle with a coal miner, expect to get dirty yourself”.
Thank you for detailing these areas for positive growth, Pete.
May I add a fourth, which is in psychology ?
Let us hope that psychology makes swifter progress to becoming a higher and more accurate science. With advanced technology, real-time brain scanning and recording, with advances in neurology combined with genetic research, also with exploration into consciousness itself and greater understanding of our decision and choice-making processes… all of these need to see development, and to be authenticated with good data.
In synchrony with their development, clarity needs to emerge about how such new data can be used to predict and prevent negative and violent crime, or even just destructive behaviour in society that wreaks such havoc.
In particular, we need safeguards against such new information being used inversely - by dangerous clever people - to excuse themselves from responsibility for their actions.
We need to establish psychological and neurological causes and motives, and we need it to be established as a given that it doesn’t alter the fact that certain actions (whether the person ‘couldn’t help it’ or not) are Unacceptable. We need to draw lines more firmly on this as an absolute. Certain behaviour is absolutely unacceptable in all circumstances.
Likewise with drug and alcohol consumption, especially among the young: we need very honest and firm debate, and no wriggling away from obvious conclusions.
Aside from the work and progress needing to be done within the profession, all interested people can develop their understanding with regard to the clever personality that charms and deceives, and has little or no conscience operating.
I am sure I’ve said it before, but it is a matter of urgency that we all become better at recognizing such personalities, and quietly take precautionary measures in our own lives.
Sometimes this means not shying away from that which seems unpleasant, unlikely, or unpalatable. We want life, and people, to be nice, but it is frequently not. Life is full of unfairness. It is good to be aware of it.
@davidmulhern - Excellent post, which I think reflects the way many of us think. Like you, I am not religious, and I have no expectation that injustices and evils will be addressed in another world. The only justice we can hope for is human justice. If the courts fail, perhaps the refusal of decent human beings to engage with murderers will serve as the sole punishment.
@SeekingUnderstanding - I think Andreas Lubitz’ case might be more successful in sparking the kind of analysis and search for understanding that you’re referring it, simply because it will affect vast corporate interests.
I do feel sympathy for the people at Lufthansa, who worked so hard to ensure that their aircraft were in order and their tech inspections meticulous, but who were perhaps not so attentive to the human factor. They probably thought they were doing right by a young man who managed to get past the darkness and inertia of depression to achieve his dream, but there was probably much more wrong with him than depression. They do have the resources to finance research and screening, and perhaps their findings will be instrumental to all of us.
@Peter - You’ve done a great job holding this community together and encouraging the production of data files and analyses. Together with the Wiki and the PMF resources and translations, these documents will continue to serve the truth and inform those who come looking for Meredith.
I wonder if in the future you might consider chairing a foundation in her name to help fight the glorification of murderers and address the negligence and corruption in the media.
I know these things take an awful lot of money and the support of influential people, and as someone with neither resources nor connections, I have no idea how such things get off the ground. But there are a lot of good, competent people here, and a lot of willingness to help, so perhaps some of many projects which could be dedicated to Meredith’s memory could take shape some day.
One change I would like to see instituted immediately in the media is that, anytime a crime of this magnitude is discussed, a person representing the victim MUST be included.
Thank you, Pete, for all you’ve done and continue to do. Great article.
Barbie Latza Nadeau’s latest - http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/27/angel-face-amanda-knox-goes-free.html
Before Friday’s decision, Knox’s lawyer Luciano Ghirga told The Daily Beast that he was disappointed in the way the trial had played out in both Italy and abroad. In a lunch with journalists, he quoted from various pieces we had written and told us where he thought we had all gone wrong. “In the end, there was no way this was ever going to be fair,” he said. “That chance passed a long time ago.” There is little doubt no one feels that as much as the Kercher family.
Can Meredith’s family file a Civil Complaint against AK/RS, as did the OJ victims Families? If so they would get $$££€€ support.
How Final is this Cassation Ruling?
Can New Evidence reopen this Murder Case?
TJMK must not end.
“Can Meredith’s family file a Civil Complaint against AK/RS, as did the OJ victims Families? “
From what I have read, yes they can file such a lawsuit. I too would really like to help them with this. I’m sure that such a lawsuit would be upheld against the two killers and wipe out AK and RS for the rest of their lives.
Yes,Meredith may have accomplished more in death than millions of people do in life. She dearly loved Italy, how fitting that her sacrifice may cause Italy prosperity, Italy’s justice system to be overhauled and international students safer as US universities more cautious. Helping people, that was her aim.
@SeekingUnderstanding, onward and upward in the field of psychology and I agree with the immediate solution that we all wise up and screen our acquaintances better (sadly, even family members require careful thought) with the knowledge of sociopathy that cases like this highlight.
@davidmulhern, thank you. I agree completely.
@Vivianna, thank you for all your well written comments for so long. Yes, there remains a world of ways to keep Meredith’s cause vital.
Right now I imagine most of us want to take a very very long break from this case. I’m exhausted, but its energy may morph elsewhere.
As for the party brigands full of trash talk, I for one have turned my back on the Knox lies permanently and refuse to listen to a word she says. One click of tv remote or PC mouse and I move to fresh air.
Knox is not the kind of person even her defenders would want to spend much time with. At least we can always celebrate Meredith’s life with pride.
I agree with mojo and chami and mariopuzu and Helder Licht and Earthling and CardiolMD and all the other diehards who are now so grieved at seeing this calamity of injustice.
Maybe you can accept the advice I give myself: Don’t let the devil get you down. He comes to steal your joy, he knows the joy of the Lord is your strength. A thief is after valuable things. This morning I’ve already listened to fabulous praise music and heard powerful TV scripture on widow of Zarephath who sustained the prophet Elijah and had her needs met by giving first to God.
Then I went to the Planetarium and saw the red storms of Jupiter and the rings of Saturn and the millions of hydrogen atoms in the sun that fuse every minute to release helium and cause heat energy that fuels this mighty universe. There is unending power available to people, keep looking up.
The time spent on Meredith’s legal case has not been wasted. Even if you think it has, my father had a guy tell him God would restore the years that the locust has eaten. God can multiply time to you. Time is his servant.
I feel enriched by the people on this board and PMF sites, also Will Savive and others who came alongside. We’ve all learned something new or can better sound the depths of our own souls more accurately to keep on with our quest. Maybe a new quest. The road to truth has many turns, Meredith’s story has not ended, maybe it’s just begun. Maybe Mr. Quennell birthed the baby and we were midwives but baby will grow up with other nannies.
Let’s keep our eyes open over the next several years to watch for further outcomes of Meredith’s case for good. God is good all the time. He is always worthy no matter what mood we’re in. He keeps covenant forever. A day is as a thousand years with him. peace
“The time spent on Meredith’s legal case has not been wasted. Even if you think it has, my father had a guy tell him God would restore the years that the locust has eaten. God can multiply time to you. Time is his servant.”
Thank you, Hopeful, for your loving, gentle, and wise remarks. This community has sustained more than Meredith’s cause; including me, through several difficult times. Perhaps that is one of Meredith’s lasting gifts, as well.
Rabbi Kushner’s lecture on When Bad Things Happen to Good People (available on YouTube) has helped sustain me this week.
Yours and so many comments and articles I’ve read on TJMK have also enriched my life. Thank you to all.
I came to this site after reading John Kercher’s book and I’m so so glad that I did.
Since coming to this site I’m now much more about reading into the detail of cases; when I see or read what some ‘expert’ (I’ve lost count of the ones we’ve had to endure) has to say, well let’s just say, I check their ‘facts’, and it’s thanks to Meredith/TJMK. Peter, THANK YOU.
The final verdict yesterday is horrible; a horrible ending to a horrible journey. But I haven’t given up on justice for Meredith and I think the truth will eventually come out.
Thank you, Peter, for this post, which makes me feel a little better….and thank you for your perseverance and dedication to justice for Meredith Kercher over these many years.
Peter, if there’s a way to keep TJMK going (ironically, it looks like it is here where Meredith’s memory finds *true* justice), it will probably be a good thing.
We’re a bit bruised right now, and I don’t think anyone is thinking straight, so it’s probably better if we take some time to recover from the shock.
Information is flowing out there, though, hard to say what’s rumor and what isn’t, and it would be good to have a home base where we can share it and vent our frustration, if nothing else.
However, someone posted a Polish proverb on Twitter a few days ago: “Not my circus, not my monkeys”, and right now that may apply to what some of us may feel. Some of the people here fought heroically (you especially, Peter), and I don’t have enough words to thank them.
I am actually immune to the TV news because, well, I don’t watch it. I started out about 17 years ago, and when I do catch a glimpse of the plastic people reciting their lines using music, sound effects, and annoying visual flashes, I really wonder how people fall for that cheap stuff. So, I’m not worried about seeing Knox on TV, because I simply won’t Give it a little time, though, and we will all see Princess step on a light bulb, and it won’t even be spectacular, I have seen things that were 1,000 times less likely to occur.
All the best, everyone.
I appreciate the education I have received since joining this site and interacting with intelligent voices. I do feel that I have somewhat embarrassed myself online as I was sure justice would prevail and Italy would do the ‘right’ thing. They have made their final decision though. I do believe in justice after death but I also believe you reap what you sow now. RS and AK have to live with themselves and all their lies and deceit along with others who colluded with them. The psychological trauma they will suffer as they continue to lie, steal and cheat will be enormous. Now they have to lie for the rest of their lives and try to deny, even to themselves, what they truly are. As with the OJ trial we still may see civil lawsuits against them as well as legal woes to continue for some time to come. Thank you Peter for your consistency and dedication. I wish the Kerchers well and may some semblance of peace enter into their lives.
Vance (My real name)
If the Kerchers do have a legal right and a facility to pursue their daughter’s murderers for compensation via a civil suit a la the Brown family in the OJ case, I for one can say I will happily support it in every way that I can. I’ve been coming to this site for enough years to know that I will be far from alone. Please Peter let the family know that we are here from them in every sense that they require us.
Thanks to everyone who worked to translate the court documents and share the facts of the case with an English-speaking audience that was primarily hearing PR spin.
I hope the report from Cassation will be translated as well.
My heart goes out to the Kercher family. I got involved in this case because I saw such a disconnect between what was being reported in the U.S. and in European media and it seemed so unfair to the victim and her family.
As a white woman who cares about women’s issues, one aspect of the case that always bothered me was that it shouldn’t matter whether a suspect is white or black, attractive or not, sexually experienced/active or not. The media types who stepped forward to say, in effect, “She reminds me of my daughter so how could she have done this?” without taking a sober look at the evidence presented should be ashamed of themselves.
The media who refused to cover anything controversial or counter to a specific narrative because they wanted continued access to the suspect’s family should also be ashamed of themselves.
I hope and expect that the final report will reflect a sober, thoughtful review of all the elements of the case.
At then at some point, when the emotions have died down, a study of the media and their reporting on this case and others similar to it should be published. I have a working title:
“Attractive, Connected, Female, and White: What Role does Media Bias Play in the Judicial Process?” and I’d cite some of the early U.S. coverage, including the multiple columns written by Timothy Egan (and his daughter) and King5’s coverage as examples for them to study.
I have been trying to handle this with the dignity and class that i have seen from the Kerchers. I’m not having a lot of success with that, other than keeping my mouth shut.
I have felt like i’ve been punched in the stomach.
I would like to see a wrongful death suit like the Goldmans did against OJ, don’t know if the Kerchers would want to pursue that.
Thank you Hopeful, and others for your comforting words.
Thank you Peter for helping me keep my focus positive and for your reminders that there are many ways apart from the courts that this is not final.
I want to tell everyone that yet, the story isn’t finished.
If the victims of the Ustica massacre had given up at this point, truth would have never been established and acknowledged.
But they reached justice in the end.
This is something that I would like to tell the Kercher family, that people are not just thinking about the tremendous injustice they are suffering as a consequence of politics and media lies; there will be action too.
This “annulment” is very peculiar, I would say unheard of. Not only because it’s absurd, but because it may open new legal questions potentially explosive.
The political background and mechanisms that went behind, the names of the people involved, are now becoming unfortunately clear. But as for the ruling itself, there are also several important legal implications.
Not to speak about the fact that there are also other investigations and trials that will follow.
We have to wait for the Cassazione motivations report. We should expect then basically one of two possibilities: the verdict may be a “reasonable doubt” about “roles” that acknowledges the implication of at lest one of the perpetrators, or it could be a second “Hellmann” verdict.
Some sub-categories can be imagined: it could be a kind of verdict that merely limits itself at criticizing Nencini’s “errors”, or may extend up to contain illogical and erroneous reasoning with denials of findings, mystification, exaggerating importance of “evidence shortcomings”, parceling up and and forgetings of things, basically another Hellmann.
The point is that whatever they write, their problem will be to chose between admitting probable guilt of at lest one person, or using the logic that the same SC office had scathingly censored in the Chieffi ruling.
If they chose a path similar to Hellmann, they will create a double clash with two SC verdicts: the one that finds definitively that there were other killers with Guede and he was not holding the knife, and also the Chieffi verdict which prohibits the use of the Hellmann logic.
This conflict of res iudicata is a deadly weapon in the hands of the Kercher family and can be used to go further through many means for the truth.
Not only the Kerchers can still sue Sollecito and Knox for wrongful killing, but under recent laws, they can also sue the Italian State, and use that way to pursue the truth.
There is a new law which permits to act legally against the State on Supreme Court verdicts that are inconsistent. Civil lawsuit of such kind was successfully pursued by victims in important cases, and used to find out the truth.
Alan Dershowitz was interviewed by “Il Messaggero”. A full article about the “Il Messaggero” interview is here:
«Se l’Italia avesse voluto imprigionarla la risposta sarebbe stata semplice: il ministero di Giustizia italiano avrebbe richiesto l’estradizione, e il dipartimento di Stato americano sarebbe stato obbligato a concederla». Ma «un’eventuale richiesta di estradizione avrebbe messo in forte imbarazzo il nostro governo».
«La mia impressione è che la soluzione della vicenda sarebbe passata non per la strada del diritto ma per quella della diplomazia. Le rispettive ambasciate erano sicuramente in contatto da diverso tempo per tastare il terreno in modo discreto, capire quali sono le intenzioni reciproche, e negoziare la strada più agevole per entrambi i paesi».
Translation of bits:
“Had Italy wanted to imprison her, the solution would have been simple: the Minister of Justice should have requested extradition, and the Department of State would have been obligated to comply”. But “a possible extradition request would have put our government in a strong embarassment” (Because Knox had the support of a media campaign, ed. note)
“My impression was that the solution of the story would have been not through the path of law, but thourgh that of diplomacy. The respective embassies sure had been in contact for a long time, in order to quitely check the ground, understand what the mutual intentions were, and negotiate the way [of solution] most convenient for both countries”
Mille grazie per l’articolo, Yummi!
Odysseus, SeekingUnderstanding, Chami, remember our discussion earlier about American pressures—it ain’t over till the fat lady sings, goddammit.
That was so painful. Shell shocked. Just now climbing out amidst the smoke, fires, and wailing.
Thank you Peter and everyone for your continued posts—I couldn’t manage to do it.
I can’t watch the smug, gloating interviews and must stay clear of reading the comments section unless I know I’m in somewhat friendly territory.
I feel like Graham said in that I kind of went into a “deep depression” last night while a friend was talking to me on the phone. She said, “What is wrong with you?” I couldn’t begin to explain.
It’s physically painful and makes my heart feel so heavy. What is wrong with people?
Hi, Wascana, welcome back to life, thanks for crawling back, I’m here to give you a hug, this one’s for you
Let’s take it easy for now ...
Awwwww, thanks, Bjorn. I feel better already. You are right—it’s time to step back for a bit. I need to take the wider view. My focus had become so intensely narrow, and I felt the results of that yesterday.I am so thankful for everyone on this site. I am the Lucky One.
I am the Lucky One, too, Wascana!
Please forgive the late hour, but I would like to post a link to one of my favorite songs by Laura Pausini (in Italian, sounds beautiful to my Romanian ear), it’s a tragic love song, listen if you feel like it, ignore if you don’t, the lyrics are not that important, but they’re about a girl who lost her love five days before, and is imploring her lover to help her destroy his memory, but it’s the music that counts, and the spirituality of it all, we have a right to be sad now, and to just grieve:
Thank you so much, Yummi…that is music to my ears, especially, that there is recourse via a new law to revisit the Supreme Court, which always seemed to ride on its final and supreme authority.
(All the more reason why it has the responsibility to be true to justice, and deliver.)
I would re-iterate what others have said, in a message to the Kerchers, that I would do whatever I can to support them, and I’m sure this is echoed by many.
to Wascana, Mark, and all other commentators beginning to speak up again - I welcome your sharing, and also to others reading but silent - you are not alone in the feelings that this has plunged us all into. We are a community, and support and comfort at such a time is of great importance.
We can reside in the truth.
To chami, who posed questions about injustice and inequality on the previous post - I will post shortly on the impact of injustice on us psychologically.
“I will post shortly on the impact of injustice on us psychologically.”
I look forward to it and hope for special attention for “Italian perceptions”.
I hope you understood my intentions. Of course it is about “our/us/we” psychology. I love your posts on the subject this far.
Since friday I try to be more aware of Italian society, with it’s own perceptions and realities to deal with, in the streets, in the academics, the religion devisions and all that.
The acceleration of criminal thinking in all levels of societyis very actual in Europe. It’s not just about truth vs lie. It is about evil vs good too.
It does actually touch on profound things, which are also very topical - that’s why I want to give proper attention to the subject, and not to rush…
We can be resilient to this, and remain clear and steady.
Hi everybody. Sorry, I’m at a conference through to Mon, would like then to respond to comments above and pass on any words of sympathy to Meredith’s family.
Sure, we intend to go forward. I would urge no-one to leave just yet, at least till they know what the end-game could be. Yummi points out some of the ways forward. We may see Cassation tied in knots, especially as they seem to have got into the merits whereas their role is meant to be just the law.
By the way, the final decider in the justice system in Italy is not Cassation. It is actually the President. And the most powerful player in the situation now? The population of Italy which clearly smells a rat. This has a big chance of becoming unwound,
The 2 book trials remain on track, in Florence no less. And TJMK and the Wiki are not yet loaded with the full truth, some new pages to come, our deadline for that had been some weeks ahead.
Remain watchful. And we depend heavily on tips.
On the third system area in the post, justice system, there is something I should add. The higher level courts tend to look down on the lower level courts and are notorious for pulling their chain.
We have now seen Cassation do this twice. Once with Hellmann, once with Nencini. Opposite extremes. As Yummi has said, this makes no logical sense, and the opportunities should be sharply wound back.
Heya Bjorn. It seems we have something in common.
Yummi, what you are saying is encouraging and I hope there are people inside the Italian system who may be unaffiliated with this case, but who are willing to pursue it further.
It seems to me that this verdict has far greater implications than the faulty resolution of a specific murder case. What worries me the most is the fact that the SC appears to have ruled on the merits of the evidence, rather than on the legal details of the Nencini case, and that it has issued a decision which may potentially conflict with one of its previous rulings.
I don’t have the knowledge to begin to understand how this is possible and I don’t know whether each SC ruling becomes a precedent. But if this decision does become a precedent, then its implications for other murder cases could be catastrophic.
I was at work when I read about the Berlusconi decision and I remember feeling very uneasy. I imagine it must have been discussed on PMF, but I couldn’t check at the moment and it slipped my mind afterwards. But, at the time, I rationalized it by saying that there were 400 judges and probably different panels for different cases, and whatever the pressure or interests in that case, things would likely be different in this one. I trusted them because of the Hellmann annulment.
Then again, when you I think or maybe Popper tweeted about the Zanetti code, I felt apprehensive.
I feel like we should have seen this coming, perhaps, not because it would have changed anything, but because it would have tempered the shock and put everyone in a more active mode.
I’ve been sensing a lot of exhaustion and defeat over the past couple of days, and while I think it’s normal to want to walk away for a while, I would urge everyone to not give up just yet. These communities were not formed to interfere with the proceedings, but to fight disinformation in the media. While we cannot refer to them as “convicted murderers” anymore, we can still counter false claims and we can still support the Kercher family should they choose to continue with a civil suit.
I think it’s very important that TJMK and the PMFs continue to exist in order to prevent false narratives from becoming entrenched. And I think any of you who have developed an academic interest in this case should publish your theses and articles because balanced scholarship will always be instrumental to those who wish to research this case in earnest.
“The population of Italy which clearly smells a rat”
You have said it so succinctly. I, for one, would love these two kids to get out on the flimsiest evidence that they were not there. They did not do the murder of an innocent young girl. But can they (I mean the honourable justice) provide the flimsiest of evidence that these two kids were not there?
I am not sad, I am mad. Do you hear me?
Nobody killed Meredith Kercher. She died a natural death. From loss of blood. Her heart failed. Her brain stopped. No one took her to a hospital. The killers wanted wild sex. They had no time. For her.
Minus and minus make one plus. But two wrongs do not make right. Two left turns make an U-turn.
To quote a judge, “anything is possible”.
To quote a “perverb”- the golden rule- he who has the gold, makes the rule.
Italy has suffered. Perhaps more than its due. People will rise- they will protest.
I would have been happy if the criminals were just named and shamed. That would have been sufficient. Who cares? They would have had a gala time in prison- at our expense! Think of that.
Thursday night I was having dinner with a Professor from Leeds University at Goa and I was keen to know the results. Oh, it is going to take time! But then someone on one of these forums said that the SC will only check for the technicalities- not the details of the merits. Oh, you fools! Where do you live? in the United States of A.?
I am patient, I can wait. I will have the last laugh.
@seekiningunderstanding, I know (I guess!!) how you feel. You also know how I feel. The justice has failed the victims. For the powerful. But then, you want the people to keep calm? It is not going to happen. well, well, why the UK did not tell the US that we want an acceptable resolution?! Strange are the ways of justice!
Let there be some peace!
Meredith Kercher’s mother: ‘We have waited in vain’
Arline Kercher says she does not understand why Italian judges acquitted Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito for the murder of her daugher, Meredith
29 Mar 2015
Of particlular interest is this part:
“Mrs Kercher suggested she may make a prison visit to see Rudy Guede, who is serving a 16-year jail sentence for the murder of Miss Kercher, but said she didn’t know whether it would be possible.”
Looks to me like the Kerchers want to pursue the truth. I expect lawsuits in a few months from now. If they need financial support for any of this, I am quite ready to deliver.
Hi Vivianna (I sent you a message)
@chami: “I would have been happy if the criminals were just named and shamed.” True. But if you think about it, that has actually happened, they also did time in prison, for crying out loud. However, we’re still here, in shock, which means that what happened is effing far from being OK (pardon my Pulp Fiction language).
I was also under the impression that there was only going to be a check of the technical aspects only, and not the merits, yes, everybody was blindsided big time.
The comment of the judge that Cardiol picked up on, that we pretty much know only thing for certain, that Meredith is dead, should have been grounds for the prompt recusation of the mofo.
No, no, I didn’t say calm! Just clear and steady.
I am glad you were/are angry, and grateful that you said so.
It is natural to feel just anger (‘just’ meaning righteous anger), and anger is a very useful energy to motivate us forward. But one needs to direct anger for it to be useful.
And we will need to wait, a la Yummi, to see the direction forward.
The English have a characteristic of restraint. People who don’t know us very well sometimes mistake this for inhibition or repression. Believe me, we can be both restrained and passionate!
I am concerned with the plight of wronged and innocent victim(s). Experiencing injustice can be very crushing, debilitating.
In counselling, one is continually dealing with the fallout from injustice - people whose lives have been numbed by it. They feel their self-worth has been ‘annulled’.
Hopefully I may be able to offer a few insights. I am writing a post which with luck will be ready tomorrow.
I do feel for you chami. I feel for everyone I have come to know here.
I feel, every hour, for the Kerchers. What has happened is cruel to them, as I perceive things. They went through trauma. How can the trauma begin to heal, when the wound is continually re-cut?
I send them my best wishes, once more.
This is good. The Telegraph and Alice Philipson have done a great job dedicating a full story to the Kercher family without polluting it with references to the obscene FOA celebrations. The Guardian has some decent reporting on other topics, but their coverage of this trial has been unequivocally biased and the fact that they stooped to publishing extensive quotes from Karen Pruett was absolutely sickening. Perhaps they were unaware of the profanity-laced tweets in which she threatened Mignini.
I am not surprised that Mrs. Kercher wants to talk to Guede. Rudi was not a good person at the time Meredith was killed and he has never told the full truth. However, he seems to have accepted his punishment and he expressed some form of remorse, which is more than can be said about his “lucky” accomplices. Perhaps he’s changed and he deeply regrets what he has done and perhaps he might try to make amends in the future. I think the ironic thing is that the only one who may be plagued by guilt and weighed down by his lies will be Rudi Guede, the only person actually paying for Meredith’s murder.
I hope that the Italian authorities allow Mrs. Kercher to visit Guede and that they provide a space in which they can talk without surveillance. As long as the family learns the truth, I don’t think it’s necessary for Guede to give a public account if it would put his life in danger. He may be a convicted murderer, but no one deserves to be butchered for telling the truth.
I also loved the was in which Mrs. Kercher put Amanda in her place without sounding impolite. “That girl.” No invectives, no labels, just a simple, anonymous demonstrative which indicates distance. Good. I hope it rankles.
Whatever the way in which Meredith’s family choose to act, we should support them and respect their choices. The Italian state hasn’t lost a daughter or sister, though, and it’s them who should be pressured to review this SC ruling and open an investigation if necessary.
this just goes from bad to worse. now, i read amanda will pursue damages?? good lord, what next? i’m still scratching my head. what the hell went wrong? i know killers get off, but…man
Thank you, Bjorn, for the beautiful music to grieve by and to everyone for the steady comments. I can’t offer in way of translation or legal advice but I am here for anything else and would certainly contribute in supporting the next phase. Bless you all.
@mojo Don’t worry, the two killers won’t get any compensation. Basically, they would have to prove that they were not genuine suspects. But they most certainly were. However, if they want to keep the spotlight on them even more so, then even more of the truth will be discovered and we will get to broadcast it and read about it here and on other sites.
@Johnny Yen, your offer to help the Kerchers financially if they try a civil suit, that’s marvelous, I am in awe of your generosity. (too tired for much more than one liners today, but have read all comments and feel everyone’s pain, the anger, the disgust, the depression, it may take a miracle, glad for Vivianna’s forward thinking and await Seeking’s post)
3 open questions for anyone who might know:
(1) At the 2014 appeal verdict, Judge Nencini ordered Knox’s proceeds from ‘‘Waiting to be Heard’’ to be forfeited, and paid to Patrick Lumumba.
That conviction stands, with the aggravating circumstances still attached.
So, is that forfeiture order still in place?
(2) Knox, filed her completely fraudulent calunnia conviction appeal to the European Court of Human Rights, claiming she was essentially tortured up to and including her arrest.
Since she wants to go that route, is there any way of the Kercher family making a claim to the ECHR, since Knox clearly and much more severely violated Meredith’s human rights?
(3) Knox frequently says she is keeping fighting. Well, her lawyers did all the work. So how exactly is she ‘‘fighting’‘? Other than by giving speeches?
@ Mojo - Knox will have a hard time claiming false imprisonment, since she basically got ‘‘time served’’ for that calunnia/false accusation.
In a morbidly ironic way, I actually do hope that Knox and/or Sollecito try to get compensation. It would completely take the gloves off.
The criminal courts may not be allowed to leak, but if they (again), try to cash in, I’m sure that things will be let out. And I truly wish that this (the English translations), would find their way to the American media.
@ Peter - Thank you for seeing at least a few positives that came out of this: overhaul of exchanges, and possible changes to Italian justice. Seriously though, this ruling makes it hard to have any faith at all.
But let’s be fair. Even in murder cases, 6-8 years to get a definitive ruling is ridiculous.
@ SeekingUnderstanding - You are right, AK/RS have inadvertently opened up more insights into these harmful traits.
@ Everyone - thank you for your many contributions.
I hope there is a special place in hell for AK and RS, and their lawyers.
We can always hope that the book trials lead to the floodgates getting opened, and AK and RS get almost as much time for various calunnias as they would have for murder.
Sorry, but these two repulse me
What the f*** is this? This better be a hoax.
Guess it kind of proves this whole persecution and torture was a load of crap. Knox loves Italy, just as long as she isn’t facing jail time.
@Chimera It is a hoax planted by her lawyers who Knox is indebted to up to her eyeballs. Vedova and Ghirga and many others just want to get paid. Also I just read that since AK and RS lied to the police, both provably and in one case self-admittedly, early on in the investigation, they will not be eligible for compensation from the state of Italy. Knox has no money and no prospect for gainful employment in the future. And even if by some miracle, she does get a full-time job and keeps it, her wages will be garnished by the awards from the upcoming wrongful death lawsuit award against her. Basically, she’s already deep in debt and desperate for a big payoff. She’ll be dancing on a poll by the end of the year.
@Johnny Yen - You may be right. Hope so.
It is truly mindblowing the suggestion (from the links) that she would return to Italy and that she loved it. She slimed Italy publicly for years, and vowed, even just weeks ago, to remain a fugitive.
There is at least one bit of karma here. Knox seems to have aged almost 2 decades between the 2013 and 2015 Cassation rulings. She looks middle aged now. Sollecito as well, though not as extreme.
@ Everyone - I have heard conflicting claims as to whether or not civil claims from the Kerchers are now possible, or whether Cassation killed that off. Anyone? Peter? Yummi? Popper?
@Chimera Yes, there is legal recourse for the Kerchers. Yuumi has commented about that above.
I’d suggest to stay smart, not mad. And watch carefully and report here all the time. It aint done yet. For our permanent record, the legal buzz from Italy just posted in the box at the top reads thus:
Legal buzz from Italy. Cassation Fifth Section seem to have painted themselves in a corner and there seems more on “connections” due to come out. The pair were found not guilty, not innocent, and Cassation should maybe not even have done that, they are meant to review only the law and if theres a substance problem, it goes back to the Florence Court. RS and AK are still on trial for multiple lies in their books, a law allows Cassation to be sued to explain, and the President as head of the justice system with power to reverse Cassation could be drawn in.
Another point. Defendants exonerated usually dont get compensation if it is proven that they lied to investigators before their arrest. So to get anything in cash, RS and AK will have to prove they didnt lie.
But Knox already served for three years for doing that and the Supreme Court ruled this was right. And RS said he was made to lie - by AK.
I didn’t read the article or see the story but I feel similar to Mrs. Kercher as she uses the term “that girl” for a name that i never care to mention again unless it includes some negative (for her) circumstances. Actually i could think of a lot of more fitting and accurately descriptive titles than girl, i will keep them to myself for now, it’s not like anyone here doesn’t know them all.
I have mostly avoided many news sites that i normally read, couldn’t help but see one smirking faced girl picture and i thought, how quickly the arrogance is coming back.
I wonder about the possibility of the Kerchers suing Knox and Sollecito through the UK civil court? This would perhaps allow the evidence to be handed over to a UK team of forensic experts and lawyers, Gil excluded of course. This would petrify Knox, Sollecito and their cronies, and deservedly so.
A civil suit running in the millions would not only bankrupt the pair but shame those cowards in Italy to submit to US pressure and /or financial gain. I really hope that the Kerchers decide to take this course because it would cement not only the evil pairs guilt but it would validate the evidence against them for once and for all AND expose all of the filthy underhand tactics used by the FOA etc.
Find legal precedents for that? We can feed them into the hopper for consideration. That could flow naturally from what is in the box above.
A suit in Italy or UK or both announced soon could really rattle the writers of the Sentencing Report due in three months.
Note their Guede decision 2010 was not annulled nor their 2013 Hellmann decision, which means a suit could rocket through.
Maybe on Friday they had a long boozy lunch? That is not a sign of thinking straight.
Mark, along with the arrogance her many other nasty personality traits and habits are bound to come to the surface. The happiest she has ever been was drugged up, boozed up and all but whoring her way through every drug pusher and pub drop out she could get her unwashed hands on. Given half the chance she would do it all over again. The more confident she gets, the more likely she is to repeat her gutter antics and to reoffend. God help anyone around her that provokes her envy!
As Knox has a felony conviction that might stop the Italians from letting her in again. She may come to choose to avoid Italy anyway as the lies in her calunnia trial are revealed.
Thanks Peter, I agree. I will do some research. It seems only fair that dear Meredith has help from the UK, it should have happened ages ago! Our government was only too happy to get involved for the McCanns after all! Perhaps someone high up in the legal community here might take the case on without a fee for moral reasons?
I would like to add that enforcement of foreign asset forfeiture decisions are routine procedures for the US DOJ. Not sure about Italy, but it is probably the same way. Once the Kerchers get a wrongful death award from the courts, both AK and RS will live the rest of their lives in poverty. That will be a life sentence that they can never escape from.
Knox can apply for a long sojourn visa, which I expect she’ll be granted without issues or questions asked. If you have the kind of connections necessary to get away with murder, you can wrangle a mere visa. I’m sure her friends at the Italy-USA Foundation will be happy to put in a word for her.
I don’t really think this trip is actually going to take place, though, because her family must realize she cannot function without supervision, and also because I don’t expect Raffaele’s family to be very amenable to her. Leashes might be much tighter this time around.
I think I know why she wants to go back, and I don’t think it has anything to do with her love for Italy or with writing another crappy book. I think she wants a do-over, because she had very high expectations the first time and they didn’t quite pan out as we all know. She probably thinks that she’ll be met with an outpouring of public support, which couldn’t be further from the truth. If people didn’t like her the first time, imagine how they’d receive her now, when to many she is basically a lighting rod for the frustration and anger they feel towards the failings of their justice system.
The news of acquittal hit me like a ton of bricks! I now understand how victims of the mafia feel when the criminals are “exonerated” by the court for lack of evidence .. something doesn’t add up here. Perhaps there forces behind the scene, like diplomatic & political pressure brought to bear, especially when 2016 presidential aspirants will come out of the wood work imminently ...
As the lawyer for the Kercher’s said: it is a failure for the Italian justice system.
It is simply incomprehensible when there is so much evidence, even to a layman like me who has only followed this sporadically, that the recently “acquitted” have much to hide and lie about this horrific murder, that the court should exonerate them. I beg to wonder, and I’m not prone to this line of thinking at all, whether if the victim and the “acquitted’s” roles were reversed if the decision would have been the same? somehow, beautiful young white kids seem to have the benefit of the doubt in the system. Meredith be damned, and Guede be damned.
Perhaps the feeling among the judges was: the two exonerated kids are so much like our own, who are doubtlessly very good, that they couldn’t have possibly committed this horrific crime. With that mindset the burden of proof is on the victim’s side.
Obviously, too heavy a burden as recent events have shown ..
Yes to all of that. Maybe she wants to visit Capanne, and to get a scholarship in her name. But she wont go. She will be restrained. In fact, in just a few days I think she will feel very down.
In Italy she would be made to face the wall of lies and tart remarks by people she defamed who are still suing her. And as you say the Sollecitos will take strong measures to keep her away.
Yet another think RS and Knox have to worry about? This man is from Florence - and he loves his home team.
I just read where Italy does not have protective double jeopardy laws in their criminal justice system. And, therefore, it is theoretically possible to reopen another new investigation, press new charges and run new trials against AK and RS. I just checked the double jeopardy page on wikipedia and Italy is not listed, so can anyone verify this theoretical possibility?
If the Kerchers take further action, I will support. If they want silence, I will honor that too.
I am grateful I had the opportunity to meet and work with so many wonderful people. This experience has been propelling!
My eyes and ears were spared the news (tv off), making my process organic/insect free. I feel some peace.
The idea of Justice is much larger than any court room. Bigger than Judges and Prisons, and mostly beyond our perception. One never know exactly when the price will be exacted, but, one thing is certain..the Scales always Balance. Tao, Karma, comeuppance..the spirit of a killer must reckon, because it is Universal Law.
Much thanks to Peter.
I do not believe people will let this travesty remain the way it is. Much will come out in the months ahead. The Court ruling in nonsensical, absurd and there remains a story to be told.
It should come off as amusing that TJMK has actually been referenced on Knox’s website. Am not sure if she and her family post all the comments themselves, but there are over 200 on just the last one.
Som Nathan says:
MARCH 29, 2015 AT 08:48
Agreed. Yes books by Amanda and then by Raffaele were great reads, with true details of what they went through their saga of falsehood and ficticious allegations. Now that is over. PLEASE DO NOT GO BACK TO ITALY, until you have fully recovered and become a powerful somebody, so that you cannot be intimidated anymore.
Also, I appeal to AK supporters to “DO SOMETHING” to investigate Peter Quennell’s website “TJMK” for spreading rumours and false information specifically about Amanda. He along with others like Harry Rag, Graham Rhodes, Andrea Vogt should be investigated, prosecuted and shuttered for spreading false and made up information about this case. They should be reprimanded so that it serves as a model for OTHERS NOT TO FOLLOW.
And this one is a bit of a head scratcher. Knox (or at least someone pretending to be a follower), posts this one, comparing her to OJ Simpson:
MARCH 28, 2015 AT 20:21
I still think Italy’s way of doing it is backwards. An acquittal is an acquittal in my book. Even a case like OJ Simpson is fine. He may have committed the double murder, but I agree with the Fifth Amendment that he can never be tried again. We need finality and sometimes people get away with their crimes in such cases, but it is for the better of all mankind that we stick to a final resolution because no human being deserves to be tried again after an acquittal even if that person should be as guilty as sin.
I’m not saying that Amanda is guilty; she probably had nothing to do with it; I am saying that they should have stuck with her acquittal the first time. The prosecution should never be allowed to appeal an acquittal. That makes absolutely no sense.
And there is this one. Does it really need explaining.
Louis Menchise says:
MARCH 27, 2015 AT 15:56
Congratulations! You and Raffaele conducted yourselves with dignity and most honorably. You were reluctant celebrities, but you have used your time in the media to do much good. I know you both will continue to do so. I wish you all the best in your lives. Amanda, congratulations on your impending nuptials.
This one made me throw up a little.
Yang Tjew says:
MARCH 28, 2015 AT 19:36
Amanda and Raffaele are truly innocent and now it is official!
I have read Amanda’s book (Waiting To Be Heard: A Memoir) and Raffaele Sollecito’s book (Honor Bound: My Journey to Hell and Back with Amanda Knox) and these books will be complementary classics. It was fascinating to read from Amanda’s perspective and then switch to Raffaele’s perspective. Both books contain beautiful expressions of genuine love, tragic circumstances and delayed redemption. Our star crossed lovers had to endure harsh interrogations, false accusations, humiliation, infamy and, worse of all, heart wrenching separation. In writing the books, Raffaele and Amanda have not suffered in vain
“You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time” -Abraham Lincoln
Chimera, I think that FOA garbage should be largely ignored unless it contains incriminating information or threats people should be made aware of.
You are dealing with two kinds of people:
1. paid footsoldiers who have no choice but to stick to the official script
2. converts who, for whatever reason, either identify with the “innocent” couple or feel the need to defend them
Neither group can deviate from the script, so attempting to change their minds is a futile pursuit. At most, you can offer a different perspective for the benefit of those who are new to the case.
There’s no law against liking really shitty books or idolizing people who may have committed a horrible murder or constructing a different reality because you can’t cope with the mainstream one. Those who have crossed certain lines will probably find themselves involved in the aggravated defamation trial, which should temper their enthusiasm for a while.
There’s one line I can’t resist addressing, though, just because I find it hilarious: ” In writing the books, Raffaele and Amanda have not suffered in vain.” Oh, you know Amanda suffered terribly, but mostly because she always thought of herself as a writer and the ungrateful publisher hired a professional ghostwriter instead. The nerve! And then the stupid book didn’t even sell >angry face<. So yah, I think it was in vain after all, and next time she’ll write everything herself because YOLO!
The last few days have felt like a grieving process, no sleep, depression, sadness, just unbelievable.
TJMK is a haven for the truth, justice and humanity, I must reiterate what David Mullen wrote….
“A heartfelt thank you to Peter Quennell and the other contributors to this site. It has been a beacon for truth and understanding from its inception and I have great admiration for the enormous effort that has gone into maintaining both the content and the integrity of the site”.
Thoughts, as always, with the Kercher family.
RS in interview monday:“My relationship with Amanda was a simple story of affection. From this moment on I will not accept being labelled a murderer.”
Before he accepted being labelled, because he was in a simple story.
In an interview with NBC News Sollecito, ‘wanting to move on with his life’ said to an INTERVIEWER “I’m innocent, there’s nothing that links me to the murder”. Except all the evidence, Sollecito.
And he gave zilch sympathy to the Kerchers.
Message to Knox and Sollecito: if you are going to celebrate please keep quiet about it; Meredith Kercher is dead.
I really hope Arlene gets to meet Guede.
No, Silence is not an option.
Silence is not an option for the present nor for the future. It is not good for us. It is not good for our children.
Silence is for the dead. As long as I am alive, I shall shout. I will not keep quiet.
Till God in his heavenly abode wakes up from his slumber. Heavenly intervention is called for. Has He forgotten all His promises?
Till then I will not keep quiet.
Re your note to Chimera.
The intention to have all lies exposed in a central place is very widely supported and anticipated. and many have worked on it
These exact lies are the subject of at least five trials in Italy. I dont see the point of not knowing what they are merely because we dismiss the messenger.
Yours is the first argument I have ever seen against it. You yourself have called for academic digging.
Hi Peter. I wasn’t referring to the actual lies, which I definitely think should be addressed and especially so when they are published in the mass media and passed as facts by lazy and irresponsible journalists.
What I was talking about were the threats to sue us (for what, publishing court documents or disagreeing with their lies?) and the slobbering adulation lavished on the two miscreants.
I know that this kind of stuff used to make my blood boil and I know that it upsets a lot of other people as well. But really, it shouldn’t, because it’s a combination of Soviet-style propaganda and really poor taste. If they think Amanda is a genius, what’s the point of arguing with them or even giving their arguments any attention? It’s no different from arguing with a Putin bot or a North Korean bot, which I’m ashamed to admit I’ve done, because they’re either paid to praise “dear leader” or they’ve been brainwashed to believe that this person is really a magical being who shits unicorn dust.
So what I’m saying is save your sanity. They can slobber in anticipation of Amanda’s next masterpiece and we can take it apart as we’ve done before, and post the lies so people who do a search can find an alternative position.
Hope this makes sense.
Here is a very good analysis on AK’s body language in her recent post-acquittal TV appearance:
Nonverbal Communication Analysis Amanda Knox is She Sincere? (VIDEO, PHOTOS)
Bettina, Chami, yes, blood-boiling injustice. A very gentle person here said there is hope because we can still teach our children—yes, don’t forget to start with “Son, what you see is not true” every time.
Perhaps now you understand why I was clamoring for brutal, physical methods early on with these effers, maybe it was because I grew up surrounded by injustice wrapped up in political correctness.
I would hold my horses, though, this is far from over, keep your eyes open and your mind sharp.
Oops, I meant mollythecat - I totally agree with you, thank you for saying it for me.
The speed with which this numbskull has announced her intention to return to Italy (because she’s always loved it) is obscene even by her standards. The bleating chest thumping speech outside her house was the phoniest piece of acting yet. As Peter Hyatt pointed out, she was telling the truth about being the lucky one. It was luck that she was acquitted. I hope she doesn’t bring her crocodile teary road show to London.
“. . . . we can still teach our children—yes, don’t forget to start with “Son, what you see is not true” every time.”
Or in AK+RS case: “Son, what you see is realy true, so be warned”.
Vivianna - My goal was not to make anyone feel awkward, but rather to expose more of the nonsense that gets posted on the ‘‘Pride of Seattle’s’’ website. There were over 200 comments on her ‘‘victory’’ blog entry, and I chose 4 as they seemed useful.
Here is a more complete explanation:
(1) The first amendment of the U.S. Constitution says that Congress shall pass no law limiting freedom of speech, religion, or freedom of the press.
Yet Knox’s fan (or perhaps Knox herself under an alias), advocates shutting us down, when all we are trying to do is post and expose truth. The naming of Andrea Vogt is quite expected, as she gave the best coverage of the case in the U.S., and consequently, is not biased like most of CNN, ABC, etc ...
Yet, she files an appeal to the ECHR over her conviction for the false accusation of Lumumba, the one she was convicted of. She also has no qualms about falsely accusing Italian justice officials of assault and sexual assault.
So, Knox is extremely partial and selective (much like her cleanup), when it comes to her first amendment rights.
(2) Knox’s fan is citing the fifth amendment prohibition against double jeopardy in this one.
The O.J. Simpson quote is a novel argument, at least for me. Rather than saying ‘‘she is innocent’‘, Knox is compared to O.J., and the saying is, ‘‘well, they may very well be guilty, but we need finality’‘.
That doesn’t sound like innocent to me.
Of course, O.J. was acquitted at trial, whereas Knox was convicted at trial and released on appeal which is not ‘‘double jeopardy’‘. Knox either doesn’t know this, or deliberately misrepresents it.
If we want to extend the O.J. Simpson comparison further, although O.J. is off the hook criminally, he was found civilly liable and taken to the cleaners.
(3) This comment is that Knox and Sollecito have conducted themselves with dignity throughout and are reluctant celebrities. This is both laughable and repulsive.
Knox made a sideshow of her 2009 trial with her antics. They both hit the media circuit upon release, cashed in on book deals. Knox has made repeated requests to visit Meredith’s grave, demands to see the Kercher family. Raffaele visits the old house.
The suggestion had been made that AK and RS simply want to relive the fantasy of killing Meredith. I don’t know if that is true, but it would explain an awful lot about their behaviour.
(4) Vivianna - you spotted this one, about Knox and Sollecito didn’t suffer for their writings. Sollecito didn’t write ‘‘Honor Bound’‘, Andrew Gumbel did, at least that is what Raffy is claiming at this latest trial. And you are correct, Knox, the creative writing graduate, had a ghost writer, Linda Kuhlman, do the leg work on hers.
One additional point, and back to the O.J. comparison: He apparently didn’t write ‘‘If I did it’‘, but got paid $600,000 to put his name on it. This is exactly analygous to Sollecito. The book proceeds were seized under Son-of-Sam laws.
Again, my intent was not to put off anyone, or to make anyone feel threatened. Hope this helps a bit
It’s OK, Chimera, ..one can always ‘skim read’!
Quite useful sometimes to be reminded of the extent of the architecture propping up the Grand Illusion.
Speaking of creating illusion - isn’t this what a good actor does? He or she gets inside the skin and pulse of an imagined person, and ‘becomes’ them to the extent of adopting their mannerisms and movements and figures of speech.
Which could include their ‘natural’ body language. Hence it would be perfectly possible to give a very good rendition of ‘being sincere and heartfelt’. One can act sincerity.
We’ve discussed several times about how important an image is to a certain personality type.
We speak of ‘stepping into a role’. This always reminds me of stepping into a costume, a dress, and then acting that person/costume.
Sometimes persons with disturbed and or dissociated personalities imagine an image of themselves that they would like to appear to be (on TV etc)... and then ‘step into themselves’. Performance of themselves.
I’ve noticed celebrities -both famous and infamous - doing this.
I’ve no intention of watching any of it, in this instance!
Very optimistic that the latest news will lead to an examination of the appalling decision to free the gruesome pair! The journalists should be encouraged to thoroughly dig, and to dig deep. How dare the U.S. use muscle with no understanding of this case!
Hi Chimera. I didn’t mean don’t post that stuff, but rather don’t feel like you have to crawl through all of it and argue with them. I guess it’s not my place to tell you that because I argued with a Putin troll for a few weeks straight. I could have bounced against a rubber wall for all the good that it did.
Yah, that part about OJ, which I meant to write back about, is absolutely chilling. I also think it could be Knox or someone close to her because the argument is very self-serving.
In that person’s view, the right to not be judged again, even if guilty, supersedes the right to justice. Obviously, if a guilty person is acquitted and new evidence emerges which can allow for the case to be reopened, then a new trial should be ordered. The law is there to maintain order, and not to mollycoddle criminals.
Well said, Vivianna : ‘The law is there to maintain order, not to mollycoddle criminals’. Quite.
@MHILL. I agree absolutely…how dare they? What if Meredith had been American?
This will all do no good for the image of U.S.A. abroad, and especially in Britain. People here have long been cynical about the ‘special relationship’, -this will increase bitterness, or resentment.
(Speaking politically of course - we all have our special American friends, who we value highly).
The lies, the clean up, the staged break in, not notifying the police.
Vivianna - You are right about the purpose of laws.
SeekingUnderstanding - If Meredith had been American, and Knox anything but American, the U.S. would be demanding Knox’s head on a stick. If anything, Italy would be crawling with American reporters to make sure justice was served.
And all this PR nonsense with Marriott-Gogerty would not be tolerated.
Mylady007 - there are simple explanations for all that:
-AK and RS never lied. They are just prone to hallucinating and envisioning things. It doesn’t seem to be contagious though, as everyone else knew where they were.
I mean, even today Raffaele has trouble with his memory. Those were some powerful drugs (I mean visions), that he had.
And hey, who DOESN’T automatically come up with false accusations if they are totally innocent? It happens all the time: Susan Smith, Casey Anthony ...
-There was no cleanup. It is natural to leave puddles of water (even if your plumbing has prior leaks), then grab a mop the next morning and go buy bleach. And wiping the place down for fingerprints, but leaving the poop, is just good cleanliness.
-The break in wasn’t staged. Guede (the drug dealer), ignored the bottom floor where he knew there was drugs, climbed the walls with his spider strength, killed Meredith using his 6 arms, took a dump, then left without stealing anything. He made sure to break the windows AFTER ransacking Filomena’s room, while leaving Knox’s DNA to frame her.
-You notice the door open, a broken window, and a bloody bathroom, why call the police? Aren’t showers important? And isn’t breakfast important?
Hope that answers everything.
All along AK claimed that the Italian criminal justice was flawed, and I disagreed. Now, after this latest joke of a decision, I must concur with them!
@ Yummi - pardon the correction, but wouldn’t Cassation be going against ‘‘3’’ previous verdicts?
(1) March 2013 which annulled Hellmann logic, and said that Knox’s calunnia was to divert attention from herself (aggravated circumstances).
(2) 2010 ruling that said Rudy Guede definitively is a killer but that he didn’t act alone.
and this ...
(3) April 2008 decision, upholding Judge Matteini’s ruling that AK and RS were too dangerous, and there was too much evidence against them for house arrest prior to trial?
Anyway, this whole thing makes no sense to me.
Nor does Knox’s claim she would love to return to Italy. Does she think she would be welcomed with open arms? And if she does write a new book, will it result in more calunnia charges?
I think Yummi would agree that it was a recent defence ploy to argue that the final 2010 Cassation ruling (your 2) pointed to them and in effect tried them when they were not in court.
Actually, no. Going back to the Ricciarelli panel late in November 2007 the guiding judges argued that the signs in the room and the autopsy pointed to “a” three. Though defenses argued both for Guede as Lone Wolf (when he was not even in court) and for the Alessi and Aviello scenarios, Cassation has never said which three.
I doubt that anyone on this panel of judges knew the case as well as many of us. It takes months to get up to speed, and here two judges had to repeat the prosecution case to the other three in 1/4 of a day - not even Florence Prosecutor Crini was brought in (though he was in court).
The two guilty motivation reports will live forever. All you have to do is be able to read.
your post concerning 2 judges spending 1/4 of the day bringing the other three up to speed with the case almost implies that the 5 could have chosen acquittal because they couldn’t cope with the complexity. Alternatively, if the ‘two’ were already ‘bought’ into the acquittal camp then it might not be that difficult to misrepresent the prosecution case in favour of acquittal either.
True. The squirming among the five judges now with some rather shrill pleading in interviews and some very odd remarks on the facts and the law suggest they are not comfortable with where they are at.
I would rate this ignorance as high up there as an overall cause of the outcome. Whether this is true will soon show - and it doesnt need our help.
Their peer group is the Council of Magistrates (which edged Hellmann out - refused him a promotion so he had nowhere to go) and all the other judges and prosecutors in Italy.
Perugia’s and especially Florence’s judges and prosecutors have a terrific reputation, are among the cream, and get the toughest national cases which cannot be tried in Rome as politicians are involved.
A huge corruption investigation has just gone public in Florence which has as a target Rocco Girlanda among dozens of others. Some in Rome have a really good reason to try to take them down a peg.
I’d say by late summer there is going to be a lot of murmuring in the per group about whether they got it right or wrong and they may have a hapless future as Hellmann and those who maliciously prosecuted Mignini did.
“I would rate this ignorance as high up there as an overall cause of the outcome”
possible, but unlikely. most judges has a rather uncanny sense of perception of the truth. simple rhetoric simply does not work. it simply cannot be explained away as ignorance. if they were not really smart, they would not be there. period.
most, but not all, value their independence. they will not be swayed by a pep talk…
we need to find the motivation…
I read somewhere that the president of Italy can reverse the decision, therefore, can someone please confirm the possibility of the following senario:
AK goes back to Italy to write another fiction novel, the president reverses the cassation ruling, AK goes back to prison, no extradition needed as she’s obviously already there.
I feel full initalyized. Is it the logical place for the mob offspring, this time “mob” as a logical initiative for making own “high standard” rules?
Wait, I highly respect judges like Falcone, real heroes IMO, but since friday I rethink every thought, every perception and relativity.
What is Italy and what wants it to be?
So let me understand. The judges have very good instincts and their guts will point them the right way.
So the First Section had one set of guts in 2013?
And the Fifth Section had another set of guts last week?
Hmmm. Seriously though, every judge’s mind represents a different mix. It is said that one judge (Antonio Paolo Bruno) argued very hard last Friday for what emerged.
What swayed him? Past Sollecito links? National poltics? My bet is that we shall see.
Hi Helder Licht
Interesting comment. Try seeing Italy not as a black box but as a complex set of system, some of which dont really help. Good people are trapped.
Change some of those systems and Italy could quite quickly come right.
What I was trying to say that they know the truth but acted differently.
Like Hellman said about the real truth.
Like the artificial diamond says: look ma, how big I am! And the mum says that is my only concern: so big is perhaps fake…
Is the flower made of gold and studded with diamonds real? Ask an young girl!
The kids knew that what they are doing is wrong but they nevertheless did it!
The judges can see (I hope!) what happened on that winter night but decided anyway to look the other way.
There is something called collective property: no individual will ever do what a mob does. Mob is a collection of people but it has its own reputation.
What I said is that they all had the same set of guts but obviously something has changed.
That is the motivation. It is an external cause and effect.
THREAD CLOSED. LIMITS OF POSTS REACHED.