Thursday, December 23, 2010

Report #3 On Perugia: This Is The Walk From Raffaele’s House To The Basketball Court

Posted by SomeAlibi


Hi SA,

Amanda Knox stated on three separate occasions that she met Diya Lumumba in Piazza Grimana on the night of the murder and that they went back to the cottage. It’s quite clear that she was referring to Rudy Guede.

As you point out in your video, Knox and Guede both claimed they were in the vicinity of Piazza Grimana at about 8.18pm. In Knox’s 1.45am and 5.45am witness statements, she claimed she met Diya Lumumba in Piazza Grimana shortly afterwards. I think she met Rudy Guede and they arranged to meet up in Piazza Grimana later that evening.

Antonio Curatolo testified that Knox and Sollecito were at the basketball court in Piazza Grimana from about 9.30pm to 11.00pm-11.30pm. I believe that Knox and Sollecito went to Piazza Grimana with the express purpose of meeting Guede.

Posted by The Machine on 12/23/10 at 01:58 PM | #

A credible scenario is AK offered RG access to Meredith in exchange for drugs.

Posted by PK777 on 12/23/10 at 02:12 PM | #

Hi PK777,

Amanda Knox claimed in her 1.45am witness statement that Diya Lumumba was infatuated with Meredith. Again she was clearly referring to Guede and I think he probably was infatuated with Meredith.

I believe they went back to go the cottage because they wanted to take drugs and they knew Meredith would be there.

Posted by The Machine on 12/23/10 at 02:33 PM | #

Hi The Machine,

I’m just exploring the idea that a deal was struck - offering Meredith because AK and RS had no money for drugs.

Posted by PK777 on 12/23/10 at 02:55 PM | #

It is true that Amanda and Raffaele had no great relationship with Rudy.  So why did they meet up with him that night? 

I believe also very firmly that when Amanda walked to work, she saw Rudy for the first time and, since she knew she now had the night free from work because of Patrick’s text, asked Rudy if he could find her some drugs of some description for a bit of a party-night with Raffaele. 

They then arranged to meet up back at the basketball court at a pre-arranged time.  As The Machine says, this then also became the basis of her false accusation of Patrick with the very particular mechanic that they met at the basketball court.  This pre-arranged meeting provided the reason to leave the flat. 

Having met up, they then went back to the cottage to take the drugs with Rudy - a standard “dealer’s toke” kind of scenario.  Remember Amanda’s taped conversation with Curt where she slips and said of Rudy she had never “I never invited him to my house *before*”.

That is a linguistic slip I find really very unlikely.  Someone who has not had someone at their property simply says “I never invited him to my house” period.  The “before” is utterly surplus and meaningless, unless she actually means it was the first time she had invited him to her house… QED

Given the extreme nature of the crime, I believe these were probably harder drugs than simply pot.

Posted by SomeAlibi on 12/23/10 at 03:14 PM | #

The text from Patrick meant no money that evening for Amanda but she would have been aware that Meredith had rent money in her room. Patrick reported that he was on the verge of employing Meredith and Amanda took this news very badly. In Amanda’s head she could have believed that Meredith ‘owed’ her money because she was supplanting Amanda at the bar. Meredith’s money was stolen that evening.

Posted by PK777 on 12/23/10 at 03:28 PM | #

Sorry, but hard to believe RS had no money for drugs (at least for himself). Anybody knows AK’s salary ? And if it was legal ?

Posted by ncountryside on 12/23/10 at 04:18 PM | #

1) On the money:

Amanda’s account certainly had some money in it, but she would have felt herself in an incredible fix without a legal Italian work permit if Patrick had indeed implied he was about to lay her off.

After payments for rent, drugs and food she could have been flat broke by the end of 2007 and no easy way to explain to her father why she would be needing a lot more. (“You would not believe the price of drugs here daddy”).

Sollecito was already broke in the short term - his account which he accessed by ATMs was periodically topped up by his father but it was then low on cash or out of cash. If his spending suddenly began to spike his father would have been in Perugia in a flash.

2) On which drugs

We have heard that they were both referred to as cokeheads in the bars and cocaine is what Mignini thought it was in the summations.

Both cocaine and skunk cannabis (most cannabis in Europe is now skunk - chemically engineered in illegal labs for which there is not yet a common European standard that Italy adheres to)(joke) can have psychotic effects.

Both drugs have led to psychotic incidents and murders.

It is amazing that the conspiracy theorists simply shrug off the possible psychotic effects of drugs - think rampant paranoia, visceral rage, and suddenly a death.

BOTH MURDERS by American students in the recent period just a few miles away in Florence happened when they were on drugs - and neither murderer even knew their victim.

Counsellors in Italy of American students apparently have to wrestle to get those on prescription drugs like Ritalin to keep taking them.  If they come off those drugs suddenly they too can be really bad news.

There has been some conjecture based on the oddities of her behavior that Amanda might have a condition like ADS and have periodically come off a drug like Ritalin but there seems no hard proof.

Quite contrary to all the wild claims that all the Italian authorities leaked all the time, in fact a lot about the two (including the psychological tests done on the two in Capanne) and their drug dealing and taking has never come out.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 12/23/10 at 04:31 PM | #

Hi Peter, There is such a thing as “rebound” irrationality that occurs when ADHD/stimulant medication is wearing off. It happens daily. (think temper tantrum over a broken cookie)

However, I surmise that Amanda has some atypical neurology but was never properly diagnosed and therefore never on medication when she should have been. Additionally, she should have been getting help in some other areas as well.

The risks of NOT being on medication:*

1. 30% risk of substance abuse (self-medicating)
2. high risk of dropping out of high school or college
3. poor self-esteem
4. high risk of car accidents

*This list is from “ADHD Living Without Brakes” By Martin L. Kutscher, MD

Sometimes it is hard for parents to “see” something organically wrong with their child. It feels like a huge stigma. It’s much easier to see a child as “quirky”. Other parents choose not to medicate since there is also a huge stigma surrounding that.

Sometimes the behaviors are very borderline causing those who should be watching to shrug it off. It is an enormous amount of work and stress to have a child diagnosed with ADHD and go through many different avenues of treatment and therapy.

It is expensive and unending. There are no quick and easy fixes.

I speak from experience in this matter.

Posted by bedelia on 12/23/10 at 05:17 PM | #

Hi former bad girl, Dr. Coline Covington thinks there are signs that Amanda Knox is a psychopath.

Posted by The Machine on 12/23/10 at 05:41 PM | #

I still wonder if LACK of drugs is a bigger factor than taking them in this case. The need to acquire them can lead to dangerous measures.

Back on 3rd Dec 2007 CBS: “A local drug dealer reportedly told police that Knox owed money to a pusher.” Obviously the murder itself involves insane behaviour but in general both sides of the debate portray a lot of sane behaviour.

The ‘clean-up’ and ‘staging’ were hardly the work of people out of their minds on drugs. I am still running with the theory that an attempt to exploit Meredith for money/drugs spiralled horribly out of control - even before the opportunity to take any drugs had occurred.

Posted by PK777 on 12/23/10 at 05:46 PM | #

Psychopathic? Yes there seem to be clinical signs of that too.

Typically we have always stood for caution and treatment before AK and RS are again let loose on society which is precisely the position of Italian officialdom. That seems to us both humane to them and sensible in terms of others not becoming possible new victims.

Typically the Knox bandwagon have come out with the line that formerbadgirl says too often happens: she is just quirky.

Hard for them to say that it is more than quirky, very hard to say that it requires drugs, and almost impossible to say that it requires institutionalization.

Pesky thing about this crime against Meredith is that the Seattle end of it was so totally uninvestigated by the Italian cops and crime scene processors.

Had this been an all-American crime huge resources would have been thrown by the police and the TV networks into finding out ALL that there is to be known in Seattle.

We have heard some things that we draw the line at posting on, and you can bet the police and networks would have gone far further - really laid the scene there right open.

Sounds brutal, but American crime has dropped sharply because of incandescent spotlights like this, and the role of drugs is way better understood.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 12/23/10 at 06:05 PM | #

Hi PK777. Far from there being an absence of drivers as the conspiracy theorists like to maintain, there is in fact a considerable surplus of drivers, and all might have been in action for one or other part of the time.

You point out that AK and RS might have been desperate for a fix and normal sources of supply might have dried up. That fits with the buzz that they were both cokeheads - were already ADDICTED to cocaine.

Just to throw another drug into the mix, how about crytsal meth? A while back, we had half a dozen reporters asking in emails if there were signs of that. We didn’t know.

Crystal meth ALSO can lead to psychotic episodes, and it better than any other drug or mindset other than full-blown psychopathia might explain why the bizarre giggles and grins and cartwheels in the three days after.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 12/23/10 at 06:17 PM | #

I think she probably is a psychopath in addition to other atypical neurological disadvantages.

With proper diagnosis and treatment and therapy, her path quite possibly could have been averted. Though, I don’t think there is treatment or cure for psychopaths. But not all psychopaths murder.

Posted by bedelia on 12/23/10 at 06:17 PM | #

Hi former bad girl. Remember this

It would be interesting if you could talk to us about how society might progress in these areas as part of the legacy that poor Meredith leaves behind.

The Knox bandwagon probably consists of (1) a family in denial maybe for life, (2) lawyers and PR people who turn a blind eye, (3) these “experts” and professionals like Heavey who really should know better, (4) dopeheads and quirky people not too unlike Amanda who are saying there but for the grace of god go I, and (5) the truly naive and ignorant, who should grow a lot smarter if society is to progress.

How would you set to work on all of these?

Italian TV by the way is very partial to kind caring in-depth perpetrator and victim discussion with real experts (and neither Oprah nor Geraldo Rivera) and Italy has one of the lowest crime rates in the world, about 1/8th proportionally the murder rate of the US.

Pity the Knox forces are so adamant about that not happening here.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 12/23/10 at 06:29 PM | #

Peter Quennell

and (6) Members of Parliament, like Rocco Wreath Girlanda, worried about their career.

Posted by ncountryside on 12/23/10 at 07:53 PM | #

“The ‘clean-up’ and ‘staging’ were hardly the work of people out of their minds on drugs.”

I’m not so sure about. The actual execution of the cleanup and staging was rather incomplete, and worse actually pointed the finger of suspicion back towards them. Staging the breakin was probably unnecessary, and also staging the crime scene. They might have thought cleaning up was necessary to remove evidence of their involvement, but RS and AK may possibly been able to claim they went to the cottage and found MK, and tried to revive her.

If they had not done a cleanup the suspicion may have landed on them, but by attempting the cleanup they made it obvious, so I think their judgment was clouded by something, if not drugs.

The drugs explanation does make a lot of sense. It explains why they got involved with a dubious petty criminal/drug dealer, and how the situation got so out of control. Was this “the mistake” that Knox refers to? I always got the feeling that RS and AK felt somehow the murder was “not their fault”, i.e a misadventure with tragic consequences, and not something they really intended. If their only involvement was inviting Rudy round for hard drugs, and then attempting a cover up, it is still not something they could admit to and not get punished.

I also wonder if RS had actually stayed home, and only got involved later to help cover up for AK. Perhaps the third person was one of RS’s unsavory colleagues, maybe a drug dealer with a highly vicious streak.

Posted by bobc on 12/23/10 at 08:57 PM | #

Hi bobc. Yeah the cleanup and the pointing to Rudy does seem to have turned on them and so they are hung - but consider how much smoke is already blown and how close they came to executing the perfect crime.

About it not being “their fault” in their own minds, it is said to be a common trait in psychopaths and similar that they will forever blame the victim.

“They had it coming! Okay I may have wielded the knife but what they did was really gross. Okay I may have looked forward to it and gloated over it later, but sheesh they were just asking for it! Don’t all you morons SEE see what a depraved bit of work the victim really was?”

Amanda and her rabid gang pushing Meredith out of the limelight in the past three years - someone who we have recorded here was outstripping Amanda on every plane - could be a main reason why Amanda so often seems now self-satisfied and serene.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 12/23/10 at 10:08 PM | #

Hi SA,
I dont think anyone could argue with this
video - but I am sure they will.
True justice for Meredith Kercher.
R.I.P. Dear Meredith.

Posted by Black Dog on 12/23/10 at 10:46 PM | #

Interesting response bobc. I think these points bear further scrutiny. As Peter says ‘close to a perfect crime’ not easy when under the influence of powerful drugs. My other thoughts: taking drugs is one of AK and RS main defences ‘we can’t remember’; when were the drugs taken if at all? RS seemed to have rational conversations with his father around 8.45pm. and was switching his computer on at 5.32am.

“I always got the feeling that RS and AK felt somehow the murder was “not their fault”, i.e a misadventure with tragic consequences, and not something they really intended. If their only involvement was inviting Rudy round for hard drugs, and then attempting a cover up, it is still not something they could admit to and not get punished.” I think this is a crucial point: their lies and inhuman responses (especially the feeble attempt to break down Meredith’s door) point to a devastating involvement and yet Steve Moore’s concern about their proximity to such a brutal stabbing gives me pause for thought and I wonder about bobc’s ‘third person’ (you say a colleague of ‘RS’ did you mean colleague of ‘RG’. I still have a hunch that AK hoped the first trial would only establish a limited involvement by her and was shocked when the guilt was assessed all the way.

Posted by PK777 on 12/24/10 at 02:29 AM | #

Hi Pk777. “Steve Moore’s concern about their proximity to such a brutal stabbing gives me pause for thought ”

It does? Really? The faux expert Steve Moore with zero acquaintance with Massei and much sliming of Italian officialdom claims they were not even there.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 12/24/10 at 06:42 AM | #

In the realm of pure speculation, what other characters might possibly have had a bearing on events?

There were six cigarette butts in the ashtray in the lounge/kitchen. All were tested. Three had traces of one unidentified male, one had a mixed trace of Amanda and Raffaele, and the other two traces of one unidentified female.

We do not know when the ashtray was last emptied. We do not know whether the genetic profiles of everyone who was in the cottage post murder were taken and if they were all excluded.

On the assumption that the cigarette butts did not belong to any of the foregoing, and that the tray was emptied every 24 hours (if Meredith was a non-smoker she would probably have done this), then an unknown couple had visited the cottage on the 1st November. Who were they? A lot of “ifs” here of course.

Posted by James Raper on 12/24/10 at 12:29 PM | #

Yes, I did mean “unsavory colleague of RG”.

I don’t find Steve Moore very credible or consistent. He says we should only consider the facts that are present, then catalogs evidence that in his opinion is not present.

He catalogs this “missing evidence” without considering that this evidence may have been cleaned up. On a clean up he says simply “there was no evidence of a clean up”, without excluding the possibility that there was. If it is reasonable to argue as he does that it is “possible” for RS to break in through Filomena’s window despite evidence to the contrary, it is also “possible” there was a clean-up which left little trace. The purpose of cleaning is to remove things after all.

AKs nonchalant behavior during the trial is hard to explain, whether she was innocent or guilty. Either way, she seemed to be in deep denial about the gravity of the situation.

Posted by bobc on 12/24/10 at 01:13 PM | #

In the world of drug dealing there are a lot of middleman and no doubt AK and RS were the bottom of the rung with RG just above.

Clearly RG had his own supplier, and so on. Those towards the bottom of the chain are always users as well as dealers.

Things get nasty when dealers are owed. There is a lot of begging, wheedling, pressure, intimidation and threats, and a natural drift in to other areas of crime such as theft, burglary etc i.e Rudy.

I am speculating that RG owed and his supplier(s) (perhaps under pressure themselves) may have gone straight to AK and RS to have a “friendly word”. Perhaps they smoked AK’s cigarettes whilst AK and RS, intimidated, just shared the one cigarette left. To get these people off their back AK and RS paid up with what they had to hand, i.e Meredith’s rent money, or at least they took it pay RG to keep things sweet. RG then owes them, at least for a while.

This is pure speculation but it brings me back to my pet theory that Meredith’s money was taken prior to, and not at the time of, her murder and that this is the trigger for the violence, or rather it was a subsequent argument over the missing money that was the trigger. It is admittedly unpleasant to have to contemplate the thought that it was Meredith herself who unwittingly pulled the trigger of a loaded gun that night.

Perhaps it is in this sense that AK feels that it was not her fault but then, of course, she still had funds and presumably the time and opportunity to replace the missing money at any time before M returned home, and the evidence is that it was she who delivered the fatal knife wound.

I too believe that RG was infatuated with Meredith. Meredith was so much more a classier act than AK who was in any event now unavailable.

The question is whether RG’s infatuation was just lust that had to be satisfied at any cost and whether drugs removed all inhibition in that respect. I do not myself see that as being the overriding intention when he accompanied AK and RS to the cottage. But it was an urge that could be fulfilled, as it turned out, once he was there.

Posted by James Raper on 12/26/10 at 01:37 PM | #

@James - Is there any evidence that RG even knew Meredith before that night in any other way than just by sight? He had certainly met Knox before and expressed an interest in her. It may be that he knew Meredith by sight. But I don’t know about being “infatuated” with her, which seems to imply a longer acquaintance and/or some level of preoccupation with her beyond. Not sure there’s evidence of that.

He did assault her (and had help in doing so) but that doesn’t mean he was infatuated with Meredith. Rape is not about infatuation but control. This crime is all about control, I believe. Making Meredith do what Knox wanted her to do. I think RG was just a convenient pawn in the wrong place (for Meredith) at the right time (for Knox). Knox wrote a story about a rape - as control. It’s something she thought about, a scenario she considered.

About Knox’s family being “in denial” - well perhaps, although it is my belief they know full well she is guilty and are not in denial of that to themselves. Rather (a) they believe that since Meredith is dead there’s no point in Knox “losing her life” over it; and (b) let’s face it, this situation is now their lives and their livelihood, being Knox’s family and crying in the media about it is their job for which they are paid and paid well. Whichever way this turns out they cash in. So yes, they are going to continue to generate media attention and spin.

Posted by lilly on 12/26/10 at 05:55 PM | #


“Infatuation” may be too strong a word and no witness has come forward to speak of RG’s relationship to Meredith. If RG had or was developing a thing for M then he probably didn’t want to talk about it with blokes as it wouldn’t have fitted in with his Jack the Lad image and might even have made him an object of amusement. He may have realised from AK’s comments about M that he was just not M’s type.

It is largely a matter of inference.

Lets say that RG was attracted to M. She was a very attractive girl with an infectious smile. She was also half brown. RG was, I am quite sure, accustomed to seeing M - along with other students - frequently on or about the basketball court.

If anyone had guessed and used that knowledge to her advantage it would have been Amanda.

See The Machine’s comments above. For Lumumba read Guede. Why on earth would Lumumba have been infatuated with M? He was married with an eighteen month old child and putting all his time in to his struggling business. Not the type to go all doe eyed over an occasional customer however attractive she might be.

Then there is RG himself. Here are some selective quotes from his various statements.

” .. and another girl came in and it was Meredith and I saw that she was beautiful ...”

“I looked at the two girls (AK and MK) and saw that she (MK) was very beautiful”. Here RG makes his preference for M’s looks very clear.

Then there are all the faux intimacy details for his defence : the meeting and kiss at the halloween party, the appointment at the cottage, the foreplay, the lovey dovey talk .. ” .. a beautiful girl like her should not get angry because it would give her wrinkles.” All a cynical and necessary part of his story but I think in part he’s dredged this all up from his daydreams.

Posted by James Raper on 12/27/10 at 04:07 PM | #

Picking up on your discussion re infatuation. Kind of like puppy love, it is understandable for late bloomers, such as tomboy knox, and infamous wanker Solle, to make much of a small flirtation or be convinced, after a few days of intense coccooning, that they are soulmates. No one has spoken of guede having had any actual relationships, just of his being rather too pushy with the girls. If he suffered from low self esteem (evidenced by the overcompensation of his facebook profile as the self-made next big thing) then the mere fact that M may have said “pardon me” as she squeezed past him in a crowded club could have been misread by him as a comeon. Infatuation, in other words, does not require any substantive basis, just the magical thinking in the immature mind.

Posted by mimi on 12/28/10 at 05:52 AM | #

@ James - Thanks for including those quotes from Guede’s statements in your comment above. I think they are very telling. His remarks do seem to be wishful thinking/ daydreams.

I think it would be interesting to know more about his relationships with women and how he related to them in general. He seemed to be as you say, a Jack the Lad who liked to go out on the town and impress the ladies.

I do believe that Knox invited Guede to the cottage and that her plan was to humiliate Meredith, of whom she was intensely jealous. Meredith had started a relationship with a boy that Knox was attracted to, and Meredith didn’t sleep around or cheat, whereas Knox definitely did and openly so. So perhaps she did see that he fancied Meredith and egged him on.

@ mimi, I think you are right, Guede was someone who could easily be persuaded to get lost in his magical thinking. I’m sure emotionally immature and messed up Sollecito was pretty similar, infatuated as he was by his first “real girlfriend”. Two weak characters.

Knox was the facilitator of the whole tragic proceedings.

Posted by lilly on 12/28/10 at 11:26 AM | #

In answer to my own question above there was a couple at the cottage on the 1st Nov. Filomena and her fiancee Marco. That was when AK helped Filomena in the packing of a present. M was still asleep. Filomena and Marco may have smoked cigarettes. There remains the fact that the traces were not identified but perhaps because the relevant DNA profiles were not taken and that probably applies to most of the people who subsequently came to the murder scene as well.

Posted by James Raper on 12/28/10 at 11:00 PM | #

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