Prosecutors & Evidence Experts: Bathroom Evidence Was #1 Against Knox
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1. The Body Of Evidence Context
In 2009 at trial the formidable Scientific Police (a major ally of the FBI) outgunned the defenses day-by-day.
Blowing of smoke was attempted with the DNA, but a huge problem for the defenses was that THEIR observers had witnessed all DNA processing and not once had registered a complaint.
Unfortunately in 2011 two notorious problems in Italian justice reared their heads at the first level of automatic appeal.
- First, there was a new jury sitting there, often with a skeptical frame of mind, itching to do more than rubber-stamp.
Second, trial prosecutors and experts typically don’t get to show up, so the jurors have weeks of reading to grasp a complex case.
In this appeal the patently wrongly qualified judges Hellman and Zanetti were actually appointed by the Umbria chief judge to tilt the playing field, made easier by those two factors.
Pretty blatantly they tried to re-run an illegal new trial, but with illegal DNA consultants, and with the prosecution component left out. Then Knox and Sollecito were prematurely released.
In early 2013 Judge Chieffi of the First Chambers of the Supreme Court scathingly annulled their outcome. At his instruction, late in 2013, in Florence, that same first appeal by RS and AK was re-run.
The Nencini appeal was not a second trial, as so widely misrepresented in the US. It was a repeat first appeal, properly run, on minimalist lines very similar to common-law appeals, under strict instructions from the Supreme Court.
So in Florence, what did we get to see? On this occasion over more than a day we got to see Florence prosecutor Crini remorselesly explain the 2009 trial prosecution’s case.
I do recommend reading these two posts, because they show just what the mountain of evidence, superbly packaged and presented, looked like, before the bent Fifth Chambers of the Supreme Court in 2015 mischaracterized pretty well every point.
Click for Post: Today Lead Prosecutor Alessandro Crini Summarises The Prosecution’s Case
Click for Post: Prosecutor Alessandro Crini Concludes, Proposes 30 Years For AK And 26 For RS
Knox knew what was coming, and was too terrified even to be there. And this is what a terrified Sollecito did next.
2. And So To The Bathroom, Please
Among the toughest evidence the Perugia trial jury and Florence appeal jury got to hear was the forensic evidence in the BATHROOM portion of the crime scene - as correctly understood to be the entire top floor of the house, and not merely Meredith’s bedroom alone.
One thing we do know about the night of the murder is that there was a great deal of cleaning up. Amanda Knox writes in her police statement of 6 Nov 2007, the night of her arrest:
‘One thing I do remember is that I took a shower with Raffaele, and this may explain how we passed the time. In truth, I don’t remember exactly what day this was, but I do remember we showered and cleaned ourselves for a long time. He took care to clean my ears and dry and brush my hair.’
She claims she cannot remember when this happened, but for some reason decided to include it in her statement to the police. On the morning of 2 Nov, the day the body of Meredith Kercher was found she also explained,
‘The next thing I remember was waking up the morning of Friday, November 2nd around 10am and I took a plastic bag to bring back dirty clothes to go back to my house.’
A second reason Knox gives for returning to the cottage that morning was:
‘After we ate Raffaele washed the dishes but the pipes under his sink broke and water flooded the floor. But because he didn’t have a mop I said we could clean it up tomorrow because we (Meredith, Laura, Filomena and I) have a mop at home’. [For more about this, see my article The Curious Incident of the Pipes in the Night-Time]
Having decided to bring back some dirty clothes and fetch a mop from the cottage, she also decides to take a shower. Filomena testified that when she arrived home she found the washing machine had clothes inside at the end of a cycle which were still ‘omido’ (=damp or humid)
Likewise, in Knox’ email to her friends at home written in the early hours of Sunday 4 November, two days after the body was found, more talk of cleaning up:
‘ It was the day after halloween, thursday. I got home and she was still asleep, but after i had taken a shower and was fumbling around the kitchen she emerged from her room with the blood of her costume (vampire) still dripping down her chin.’
[snip]
‘after a little while of playing guitar me and raffael went to his house to watch movies and after to eat dinner and generally spend the evening and night indoors. we didnt go out. the next morning i woke up around 1030 and after grabbing my few things i left raffael’s appartment and walked the five minute walk back to my house to once again take a shower and grab a chane of clothes. i also needed to grab a mop because after dinner raffael had spilled a lot of water on the floor of his kitchen by accident and didnt have a mop to clean it up.’
Imagine. All of this, before the body was even discovered.
‘i undressed in my room and took a quick shower in one of the two bathrooms in my house, the one that is right next to meredith and my bedrooms (situated right next to one another). it was after i stepped out of the shower and onto the mat that i noticed the blood in the bathroom. it was on the mat i was using to dry my feet and there were drops of blood in the sink. at first i thought the blood might have come from my ears which i had pierced extrensively not too long ago, but then immediately i know it wasnt mine becaus the stains on the mat were too big for just droplets form my ear, and when i touched the blood in the sink it was caked on already. there was also blood smeered on the faucet. again, however, i thought it was strange, because my roommates and i are very clean and we wouldnt leave blood int he bathroom, but i assumed that perhaps meredith was having menstral issues and hadnt cleaned up yet. ew, but nothing to worry about. i left the bathroom and got dressed in my room. after i got dressed i went to the other bathroom in my house, the one that filomena dn laura use, and used their hairdryer to obviously dry my hair and it was after i was putting back the dryer that i noticed the shit that was left in the toilet, something that definately no one in out house would do. i started feeling a little uncomfortable and so i grabbed the mop from out closet and lef the house, closing and locking the door that no one had come back through while i was in the shower, and i returned to raffael’s place. after we had used the mop to clean up the kitchen i told raffael about what i had seen in the house over breakfast. the strange blood in the bathroom, the door wide open, the shit left in the toilet.’
So, blood on the bath mat, on the tap, in the sink, excrement in the toilet - and yet no attempt to flush it nor to wipe the sink clean.
In Darkness Descending by Russell, Johnson and Garofano, which is written in a largely novelish style, there are flashes of good quality expertise from scientists the authors interviewed. In particular Garofano (who created the Carabinieri forensic labs used by Nencini) and Stefanoni (head of a section in the Scientific Police labs).
Each of the pair had a great deal of experience in criminal forensics.
Forensic team leader Stefanoni’s explanation of the blood drops in the bathroom is especially elegant and noteworthy. It is worth bearing in mind that Mignini is quoted as saying the blood stain on the light switch was the strongest evidence of Knox’ involvement for him.
Forensics officer Gioia Brocci found an ‘unusually long streak of blood’ which extended from the rim of the wash basin all the way in a line towards the plughole, and another which followed the same pattern in the bidet.
Stefanoni explains this as her theory to the authors:
‘This is the knife moving around,’ she said extending her right arm away from her hips in an arc motion, as though she was throwing a Frisbee. ‘These blood drips were left by the knife. Too many droplets and look, the blood in the basin and bidet is paler, so it’s the knife that has been washed at that particular point’.
Pointing to other drops, she continues, ‘The drops on the box of cotton buds and the basin are dark. This is blood before being washed.’
At the trial the court was impressed with Stefanoni’s expert testimony. Trial judge Massei ruled the following to be an established fact quoting Stefanoni:
‘Traces that appeared to be of a blood nature were also present on the box of cotton buds, on top of the toilet seat, on the light switch and in the bidet, ‚and there was always the drop upwards, really on the edge and the same continuity up to the bidet siphon, of the common colour and in the same line‛ (pages 134 and 135).
Traces were present also over the bathroom door, not watered down but a vivid red colour.
The evidence collecting in the small bathroom she did with a ‘carta bibula’, which is an absorbent paper [disc] and to a question put to her by the defence of Amanda Knox’, she stated the following: “when we say finding a drop upstream and a drop downstream ... on the inside for example of the sink ... a drop on the edge of the sink and for continuity there was a drop that ended up towards the sink siphon and had a continuity, is not that one was to the right, one to the left, one here and one over there; it had its own continuity, I had deemed it proper to use the same disc of absorbent paper, as they were equal in colour, pink‛.
In 2015 the Fifth Chambers’ Judge Marasca refers to this as ‘diluted blood’.
Such material singled out was pink, of “washed blood ... in the sense it did not have the characteristic red colour of blood.
The same colour other than in the bathroom sink was noted inside the bidet (p. 152).
She specified further that it was not a strip, but “more little specks… with the same continuity‛ (page 153): they were “drippings” that gave this continuity‛ and the colouring was the same, always pink.
She did not believe then it might be different traces because of the continuity between the different drops. This is important, because pro-Knox defenders like to argue, ‘So what? Knox lived there, of course her DNA is mixed with Meredith’s.
Indeed, the reader might be telling themself ‘So the perpetrator rinsed the knife. It doesn’t prove it was Knox’.
However, the critical point is that, although the DNA mixed samples are separate, Stefanoni was able to prove conclusively to the satisfaction of the court that the DNA was deposited at the same time, together.
From Judge Massei:
In the small bathroom, three traces of the victim’s blood were found on the bathmat; on the light switch plate with two switches there were traces “of diluted blood, blood presumably mixed with water, as it was pale pink in colour’ (page 76) which also came from the victim.
A sample was taken from the front part of the faucet of the sink, which yielded the genetic profile of Amanda Knox; another sample taken from a specimen visible to the naked eye on the edge of the drain of the bidet yielded the genetic profiles of the victim and of Knox, a genetic mixture also found on the box of cotton buds near the sink.
The drippings found inside the sink appeared to be diluted blood, pink in colour, proven by testing to be human blood and yielding the genetic mixture of the victim and Knox.
On the toilet cover there was a bloody substance which yielded the genetic profile of the victim; this was also found on the door-frame. Near the toilet flush was another stain presumed to be blood, but which ended up yielding a negative result.
And:
‘Moving on to the findings taken from the small bathroom, it was pointed out that there was a substance most likely of a blood-derived nature on the ‚edge of the bidet drain‛; the sample was taken during the inspection in order to extract the specimen that yielded a genetic result of a mixed profile: victim plus Knox. It was positive for human blood.
The same procedure was done on the container of cotton swabs that was on the sink. The collected sample revealed a mixed genetic profile; victim plus Knox and it tested positive for human blood.
On the left part of the sink, there was a trace. This too was most likely of a blood-derived nature since it was of a pinkish colour, like the others.
This particular trace originated from the high part and went towards the drain, towards the lower part. The analysis provided the following results: human blood and the genetic profile of the victim plus that of Amanda Knox.
The samples taken from the toilet lid in the small bathroom provided as a genetic result: victim profile and human blood.
The trace present on the right side of the inside part of the bathroom door frame was positive for human blood and it revealed the genetic profile of the victim.
So, we now see, the (dead) victim’s blood is all over the small bathroom and the diluted blood indicates the purpose was to clean whatever item caused the continuous drips across the basin and the bidet.
So, how did Stefanoni establish that the DNA of Knox was left there at the same time as the victim’s diluted blood? From Judge Massei:
In response to specific questions regarding these traces, she stated that if they had originated from two different people and in an independent and distinct way, one from the other, what would have formed would have been a mixture of the trace: two DNA that would be separated at the start but that would have joined to form a single trace.
She believed it improbable however, to think of such an origin for the trace, which was proven mixed, and this because of the fact that the same area was affected and because of the much diluted blood appearance.
She stressed, as well, that both of the two specimens recovered in the bidet were more abundant on the rim and on the plug on the drain, compared to the part, which is let’s say, slanted, where there is a very narrow line of the substance. However, she stressed, to the naked eye, this link was evident” (page 157).
In effect, the mixed samples came from similarly diluted ‘rivulets’ of pink liquid (water + blood). = Deposited the same time at the same event.
3. Some Conclusions From The Above
It is a certain and inescapable fact that Knox and Meredith’s DNA were mixed together at the same time. Secondly, not only deposited at the same time but shows a mixture of a highly visible substance.
This is rather chilling, when you realise the substance is blood and the blood is of the newly murdered victim, rinsed with water. It also shows, it could not possibly have been mixed ‘because Knox lived there’. Knox’ sole coagulated blood on the tap, Stefanoni did say she could not date.
It does raise the question of why Knox and Sollecito told the police about the drops of blood in the sink without cleaning it up. Most likely, they knew it was Meredith’s and reasoned that it didn’t matter if Knox’ possible DNA was also there, as ‘she lived there’.
Gladwell’s assertion that ‘there was no forensic evidence’ is shown to be both utterly false and ignorant. For me, as for Stefanoni and Mignini Smoking Gun #1 is the dripping blood in the bathroom.
And indeed, the final Supreme Court ruling decrees that ‘Knox did wash her hands of the victim’s blood.’
Posted by KrissyG on 11/13/19 at 11:00 PM in
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Hi, KrissyG
I wondered about the showering together at Raffaele’s. Where had that come from? In fact it is from Knox’s Memorial on the 6th. Checked with Peter Hyatt’s Statement Analysis (See link on right). Worth another read.
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php/tjmk/C440
The other thing you say is that Mignini is quoted as saying that he regarded the blood on the light switch as the strongest evidence of Knox’s involvement. Not sure why. Where is that quote? There was no mixed DNA here but on the other hand it was faint and clearly diluted, and strong evidence of a washing of hands with blood on them.
Posted by James Raper on 11/15/19 at 06:03 AM | #
James, my understanding is that Mignini made that comment because for him it showed that it must have been dark for whoever used the bathroom to have switched on the light.
Yet, Knox claimed when she dressed (these are my thoughts now) she didn’t notice her light missing (the lamp left on the floor of Meredith’s room) because there was plenty of natural light. Claiming she was there showering (which the police disbelieved) at circa 10:00 am that might be true but then there would have been no need to switch on the bathroom light.
I think Mignini was persuaded by Stefanoni’s proof that the diluted blood was a mix of Knox and Kercher. The RFU’s on Knox’s profile were very high which is almost always an indicator of a blood source, indicating she was bleeding at the same time as the victim, otherwise Meredith’s DNA would surely have swamped Knox’ (as it did Guede’s). It started off dark red at the cotton bud then turning pink int he sink and then the bidet so it was compelling evidence.
Come the trial the prosecution seem to have decided to not speculate on what caused the ‘streak of pink blood’ in the sink and bidet.
Stefanoni declined to ‘date’ the blood spot on the tap/faucet, which was just Knox’ blood, which think demonstrates the inherent integrity of her analysis.
Who knows, Knox might have just left it there as ‘blood from a pierced ear’ as a red herring (no pun intended).
Posted by KrissyG on 11/15/19 at 06:28 AM | #
In retrospect I think it was a pity that the forensic team did not take control samples from the washbasin and the bidet.
The defence of course argued that the swabs taken of the streaks would have collected any DNA belonging to Knox that was already there. The washbasin was, after all, used by her. I don’t know about the bidet. They are certainly not in common use in America.
Garofano criticised them for swabbing down the streaks, then round the drain area, before returning up to the rims, all in one continuing process.
Swabbing the drain area separately from the streaks would have been helpful, as would swabbing some clean porcelain sections. The DNA results could have been informative.
My guess though is they figured that if there was another profile there then it would be male (as the Y haplotype would reveal) given that the apparent scenario with which they were faced was a break-in and a sexual attack.
The counter argument re these criticisms is that if there was any of Knox’s DNA lingering in the these sanitary installations (from anything but blood really) then it would not have produced as strong a result as it did.
Posted by James Raper on 11/15/19 at 05:09 PM | #
That was Dalla Vedova’s argument on behalf of his client Knox. But why would Stefanoni do it his way rather than in the accepted ENFSI way? The defence scientists made no objections at the time. As Stefanoni explained to the court, under cross examination, it was obvious the two long pink streaks - one in the sink and one in the bidet - were one sample, being a contiguous line of drips as per their continuous pink-coloured trail. She made clear the other samples were collected swab by swab (for example, the cotton bud box).
Forensic police arrive to scenes of mayhem and chaos. They have to make on the spot decisions of where to take samples, and this will obviously be at places where they see signs of a crime (blood, clothes, etc). I am not sure what you mean by ‘controls’. It wasn’t an experiment in a spotless classroom in a chemistry laboratory.
Stefanoni explained clearly why it was a mixed sample of DNA of Knox and Kercher deposited at the same time and the tough Massei court was satisfied with her testimony.
Dalla Vedova and the defence forensics were well paid to cast aspersions on whatever evidence she had to offer so no surprises there.
However, the objective scientific results clearly show Knox left her DNA at the same time the victim’s blood was being rinsed off and he RFU’s were strong, indicating a likely blood source.
The PCR results are done by machine and cannot be faked. These are results, not guesses or interpretations.
Blood from the victim was conveyed into the small bathroom. The small bathroom was used by Knox and Meredith. The blood from the victim can be definitely dated to a specific period of time. Mixed in with this blood was found Knox’ DNA - presumed also from blood due to the high RFU’s and dominance - not Guede’s and not Sollecito’s. Blood dries extraordinarily quickly, thanks to its clotting mechanisms. It won’t mix in with other DNA unless both are in a moist or liquid state. Solids don’t generally mix. If you add water to a dried blob of blood, the blood doesn’t dissolve, like sugar or salt.
The similarly diluted stain on the light switch was left by whoever was responsible for the streaks in the sink and bidet and cotton bud box and these were shown to be a mix of Knox and Kercher. There is no doubt about it.
Posted by KrissyG on 11/16/19 at 04:35 AM | #
Hi Krissy and James
Remarkable exchange. Any timeline deductible from this?
Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/17/19 at 10:00 AM | #
A note on the documentation which I know Krissy was pretty taken with, the images above come from there.
The Scientific Police did some excellent Powerpoints, and also long written texts, for the 2009 trial and 2011/13 appeal.
You can download and read all of those from the Wiki. As its navigation is at the tail end of being rebuilt, the 2009 and 2011/13 Powerpoints in PDF format can also be grabbed from own server here:
2009 http://www.truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/2009TrialTestimonyStefanoni.pdf
2011 http://www.truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/2011-09-04-Stefanoni_DNA_Rebuttals.pdf
Also here again, also from the Wiki, is the enormous DNA table in XLS spreadsheet form.
http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/2014ExcelDatabaseAllDNATraces.xls
Quite remarkable, right?!
Try finding documentation to that standard in any US or UK court, or for that matter online for any other country in the entire world.
Among the endless lies of omission of Heavey and Steve Moore and Bruce Fischer and on and on (all the way to Malcolm Gladwell who sweepingly labeled all the above “botched” without even one ounce of proof) are these:
1. US and UK evidence collection is rarely if ever better than it was here.
2. US and UK evidence presentatioin is rarely if ever better than this.
3. US and UK evidence documentation is rarely if ever put online like this.
4. US and UK trial witness transcripts are rarely if ever put online like this.
5. US and UK juries are “black box” and thought processes cannot be ridiculed as FOA did here.
And in the US hardly any criminal process even make it to trial any more, in 95% of cases they are plea-bargained out, under duress and often threat.
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php/tjmk/comments/netflixhoax_19_omitted_the_vital_context
So the full processing and presentation (and attempts at rebuttal) seen in this case is an extreme rarity in the US.
So did Heavey and Steve Moore and Bruce Fischer and Malcolm Gladwell tell you all this?
Or was their “analysis” perhaps botched?
Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/17/19 at 10:18 AM | #
By the way. if you think Krissy’s and James’s deep-dives were really deep, they could have even dived deeper still.
In addition to the Powerpoints they could have dived (and maybe did, without mentioning it) into the hundreds of pages of the Stefanoni & team verbatim testimonies transcribed from the 2009 and 2011/13 appeal.
Those also are on the Wiki, all in Italian, some of them also in English now.
What other justice system in the world transcribes all testimony as a matter of course? Gladwell? Could you speak up?
Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/17/19 at 02:02 PM | #
Pete, I wouldn’t know about a time line. Probably Knox and Sollecito laid low for a while after fleeing the cottage.
The knife rinse would have been shortly after the murder. This is pinpointed at around 10:20 and various people noticed a commotion around then and Meredith’s phone registered a call out. She kept one phone in her back jean pocket in order to be in urgent contact with her ill mother and another elsewhere. A stain in the blood on the floor nearby were she fell showed an outline of what could be a book or a phone.
Francesco Sollecito gave his son an alibi to the police claiming he had informed him the ‘flood’ - which Knox later described as a ‘puddle’ (just as the ‘blob’ of blood on the bathmat became a ‘speck’) - happened just before he rang Raff at circa 20:42, whereas in court Knox averred this happened at 23:00.
The pair, like Guede, would have been blood soaked so I am guessing they needed copious amounts of water to clean themselves up. The police said there was a strong smell of bleach in Sollecito’s apartment when they paid him a visit. In addition, Amanda describes in great detail a shower she had with Raff - which James refers to above - wherein he cleaned herself thoroughly, including her ears.
She says this was before the murder but within hours claims she was back at the cottage to have another one. This indicates the shower may have happened at the cottage after the murder and Knox is precluding police finding signs of one by saying she had one the next morning. It would explain the barefoot prints of Knox and Sollecito highlighted by luminol ( and Knox’ DNA again found mixed with Meredith’s ).
We can imagine the leaked pipe at Sollecitos was substantial, for police suspected that he himself had dismantled it, perhaps to clean out gunk or a blockage in the U-bend, and which Raff himself in his police statement said was very suspicious. He initially described it as ‘half the house was flooded’.
So, from the diluted blood on the bathroom light switch we have a picture of someone rinsing the blood off at night-time ( the bathroom had a skylight window). There is just two-thirds of a footprint on the bathmat, which appears to face the wrong way, as it ought to be facing the sink and there is no blood on the bathroom floor.
So someone will have been busy cleaning that up. He or she didn’t think the blob on the mat was any big deal, or maybe he or she thought it amusingly macabre, without realising footprints can be analysed and identified just like finger prints (it was found compatible to Sollecito and incompatible to Knox and Guede, by the forensic police)
Knox trailed Meredith’s blood into Filomena’s room, for her DNA is found mixed in with Meredith’s in one of the luminol highlighted footprint, which reveals concealed/cleaned up blood. There is zero presence of Guede in that room. Filomena’s clothes were half-heartedly thrown around. As an afterthought, possibly, a rock the size of a small boulder was thrown from the inside the room to complete the *mise en scene*.
Knox trailed a shard of glass from Filomena’s room to Meredith’s room. Bits of paper that were scattered in Filomena’s room were also scattered on top of the duvet covering Merdith’s body. Another pointer the burglary happened after the murder and was thus staged to cover up the identity of the true culprit as being someone who lived there.
So, one has a vision of Knox padding around the cottage largely alone, anxious to hide what she has done. Meredith’s door is locked to delay discovery. The hallway was cleaned by Knox and Sollecito as both their footsteps are highlighted by luminol. At about 5:00 am the pair are back at Raff’s apartment five minutes away, possibly having hung around downstairs to ensure the coast was clear. A chair is pulled up in the boy’s bathroom which has a high window that looks towards the carpark. From here they could have watched to see if anyone was approaching the cottage.
At some point, Meredith’s two phones and credit cards were disposed of, together with the key to her room.
We know they then had a session of grunge metal, including ‘Come As You Are’ by Nirvana and ‘Fight Club’ and Raff switched his phone back on to pick up his messages, having turned it off the evening before, like Knox, at about 20:45.
Knox gets up before ten to return to the cottage, whilst Raff claims he slept in until 10:30.
By the afternoon, Knox is pictured outside the cottage looking absolutely exhausted and her face flustered, rather in the manner of someone who’s been involved in a fight.
So the timeline then is basically Knox and Sollecito going backwards and forwards between the cottage and his apartment all night long, using copious amounts of water and bleach. His car appears to have had a thorough valeting as there were zero fingerprints or DNA in it.
In the meantime, Guede had fled home in blood-soaked jogging pants, changed and then went to a nightclub.
Posted by KrissyG on 11/18/19 at 01:30 PM | #
A friend writes:
‘Some of Italy’s top DNA experts from the Scientific Police AND the RIS Caribinieri are sure Amanda Knox’s blood was mixed with Meredith’s blood for a number of specific reasons i.e. there was more of Knox’s DNA in some of these mixed samples, the peaks were were of similar heights, indicating similar concentrations of DNA from both women in the samples and some of Knox’s peaks were extremely high. Touch DNA results in minute amounts of DNA being deposited, compared with that in blood.
People assume that DNA and forensic test results should be 100% accurate and reliable, but thats never been the case. It’s current CPS policy to quote a match probability of one in a billion. In theory, there could be 6 other people in the world who have the same DNA profile. Defence lawyers resort to the same tactic i.e. can you rule out the possibility that Amanda Knox’s DNA in the blood samples could have come from another source other than blood?
It’s my understanding that blood contains 10 times the number of cells that touch DNA contains. Dr Stefanoni knew that Knox’s DNA in the bathroom definitely wasn’t touch DNA.’
I meant to say, it is well worth getting your hands on James Raper’s excellent book Justice On Trial about the case, available on Amazon.
Posted by KrissyG on 11/18/19 at 01:45 PM | #
Working scenarios and timelines like Krissy’s above go back to the very first days of the case. We carry a number of them.
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php/tjmk/C306
We often tend to pick up the threads from the time of the Massei trial in 2009, but from late 2008 Judge Micheli created the first detailed timeline, in some amazing interviews and in his report committing RS and AK to trial.
Micheli rammed home the complete certainty of a pack attack.
This was so compelling at trial that at the 2011 Hellman appeal the defense teams incongruously brought in TWO claimants (Aviello and Alessi) of proofs of a pack attack not involving RS and AK.
Alessi’s claim did not even involve Guede!! Some samplers here - the one in bold is a very important read and advances the building blocks of Krissy’s scenario:
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php/tjmk/comments/what_might_have_happened_on_the_night_one_scenario
Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/18/19 at 10:32 PM | #
Re the light switch: this is what Mignini says in his closing statement (Google translation).
‘But the most significant find is No. 23, that is on the light switch of the small bathroom, the one on the right bottom of the switch with which the light comes on: the imprint has been made in the evening when there was need for light and in fact the switch is pressed towards the bottom and at that point is the bloody track belonging to the victim. That area is full of traces of Amanda and also of Sollecito, but Amanda claims to have gone to the apartment in via Della Pergola and into the small bathroom, around 10.30 am on the morning of the 2nd. There was no need then to turn the light on, but that switch was on, with pressure on the low part, from someone who had a finger stained in Meredith’s blood and this someone had been been those solved [?] or Knox (who left, as was seen, many traces in the small bath) and no other, at night time which needed them to operate the switch, because it was dark. It could not have been Guede whose traces are placed in the large bathroom.’
Bearing in mind Knox claimed not to have been at the cottage from about 5:00pm Thursday 1 November 2007, right the way through to about 10:00 next morning Friday 2 November 2007, it’s quite some feat to have left her blood mixed in with Meredith’s.
Posted by KrissyG on 11/19/19 at 12:14 PM | #
Hi Krissy
From the Wiki - translated by Google?
There are two switches on the switchboard. Yes, the right hand one is pressed down in the on position. There are also faint traces of diluted blood elsewhere on the switchboard including the other switch.
Two switches, so there must be two lights in the small bathroom. One, I think, is a large round wall light, to the right, as one steps into the bathroom which is the main light. The other is the mirror light over the washbasin. I would think it is the latter which was on.There is no ceiling. It is exposed to the roof in which there is a skylight.
I think Knox claims she did not need to have the light on when allegedly having her shower, be it that even in daylight one sometimes switches on the light above the mirror, just to have a good look at oneself.
However an obvious inference is that it had been switched on when it was dark.
Another obvious inference would seem to be that the mirror light (or perhaps the main light) was on when Knox came to take her shower. Why did she not mention this in her list of strange things? And why not turn it off when she had finished admiring herself in the mirror? Just another unlikely thing as regards her account.
There was no DNA other than Meredith’s in the diluted blood on the switchboard. Taken in isolation, and since it was obviously not Meredith who was responsible, then one cannot exclude either Guede or Sollecito as having deposited it there. However neither seemingly left any of their DNA in the bathroom. In context, with the mixed DNA of Meredith and Knox in the blood in the washbasin, the bidet, and the cotton bud box, it seems more probable that Knox was responsible.
Posted by James Raper on 11/19/19 at 03:23 PM | #
Hi Krissy and James
Do click on any image for a larger view? The light-switches image now showing in the post is rather higher-resolution. At least two stains are visible in the larger view.
This strange object above the bathroom mirror in the shot below - might it be a fluorescent or quartz light? Again, click for larger image. See the reflection in the mirror, is that a small round reflector head?
I dont have an image for the right side of the bathroom where James suggests there is a globe, but our Wiki friends might have one.
***
At what hour or hours might the light have been on, and of course shining through the skylight which those living above the car-parking facility could easily have seen? Maybe not for very long.
Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/19/19 at 05:34 PM | #
DailyMail Nov. 19, 2019: ‘I have a lot of unanswered questions’:Amanda Knox weeps for Meredith Kercher on her true crime podcast and says she is ‘desperate to hear her voice again’
On her recent podcast The Truth about True Crime, AK interviewed two friends of murdered girl Jennifer Levin who was strangled to death in New York City’s Central Park during what killer claimed was consensual rough sex in 1996. The Preppy Murder as it was called, was done by Robert Chambers. When one of Jennifer’s friends said she wanted to talk to her deceased friend about his (Robert Chambers’) ‘his misery and his hate. I’d love to just ask her about it, to talk it through. I’d love to hear what she (Jennifer) has to say. We don’t have her voice here. I would like to hear her voice.” To this Knox replies, “I have often thought the same thing about Meredith.”
Knox ‘sobs’ and says she would like to hear her (MK’s) voice, adding, “Not just because she knows the real truth, but because she deserves to be heard.’
After hanging up, Knox said she stayed in the seclusion of her vocal booth for quite awhile crying. Her husband who was outside asked her if she was all right. She replied she was ‘sad’ and said, ‘I have a lot of unanswered questions, too, you know. There are always unanswered questions when someone’s life is cut short. Things only they would know, about what really happened at the moment of their death. But unanswered questions are hard to bear, so, over time we tell ourselves larger stories that don’t so much fill in those crucial gaps as much as they try to make sense of the senseless at the broader level of society.”
Knox was doing an interview with Dr. Phil to be broadcast Tuesday, I assume that’s today, Tue. Nov. 19th, 2019, in which she defends death row inmate who had a stay of execution this week, Rodney Reed. She says he is the kind of wrongfully convicted person who spent so many years in prison, the kind of person who needs help. She tells Dr. Phil she is committed to helping the wrongfully convicted.
Best comment under this story is:
“The hypocrisy is strong with this one.”
________________
A second DailyMail online story appears dated Nov. 18, 2019 headlined: Amanda Knox opens up to Dr. Phil about how she feels compelled to help wrongfully convicted people…
She said she was ‘hit’ and ‘beat up’ in prison but that she never let it break her spirit.
“They took my freedom. They couldn’t take who I was.”
I was Foxy Knoxy the monster (to others). “When they pronounced guilty, the world crumbled beneath me.”
Posted by Hopeful on 11/19/19 at 08:20 PM | #
Tks Hopeful
She just can’t read people and by extension media. The Daily Mail (and its readers) have repeatedly shown they will throw Knox under the bus in a heartbeat. We will soon take advantage of that.
Rodney Reed’s case in Texas will be looked at but he could still lose and even still be executed. Knox speaks way too soon in saying he was wrongly convicted. Its a really confusing case to get a fix on because Reed MAY have done other similar crimes but he was never even charged, and the victim’s fiance MAY have been insanely jealous and talked revenge talk against her.
The few pro-Reed segments I saw on cable news were mild and cautious and didnt spout yet another conspiracy theory about all the cops and all the judges being delusional - the industry Knox is trying to get into.
Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/20/19 at 10:18 AM | #
Hi Pete,
Rodney’s Reed’s semen was found in the vaginas and rectums of multiple rape victims, including a 12-year-old girl and a mentally disabled woman. He wasn’t charged with these rapes because he was convicted of the rape and murder of Stacey Stites and sentenced to death.
Prosecutors do this so rape victims don’t have to go through the traumatic ordeal of being cross-examined on the stand. There is no statute of limitations for rape and sexual assault. In other words, he could still be charged with these rapes and sent to trial.
Jimmy Fennell was eliminated as a suspect by the police for a number of reasons. He was in his apartment 35 miles away and he didn’t have any transport. Stacey’s truck was parked two blocks from Rodney Reed’s home. It was literally a five-minute walk from the truck to his home.
Stacey Stites had clearly been raped. She had been partially stripped - her top and her belt had been removed and her trousers had been ripped open. There were bruises on her arms - which indicate she had been restrained - and bruises on her head. Rodney Reed’s semen was found inside her vagina and her rectum. His DNA was also found on her breasts, knickers and her clothing.
Rodney Reed’s lawyers requested additional DNA tests in 2014 in the hope it would somehow exonerate him. These DNA tests confirmed the original tests results and provided even more DNA evidence that linked him to the rape and murder of Stacey Stites.
The alleged affair between Rodney Reed and Stacey Stites has been rejected by the jury and 16 other courts.
It’s a slam dunk case.
Posted by The Machine on 11/20/19 at 11:15 AM | #
Hi Machine
Could well be, though I am very iffy about every single item claimed as “hard evidence” by either side here. They all need looking at, in the way that is serving us well here.
Though I would add that any case the Innocence Project gets behind, as we have posted extensively, is almost by definition suspect.
Cases chosen tend to promise a huge financial payoff (funded by we the taxpayers) for wrongful arrest or wrongful imprisonment - such awards can be up in the many millions - and of course Knox is riding that bandwagon.
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php/tjmk/comments/innocence_project_seven_years_clutching_knox_1
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php/tjmk/comments/innocence_project_seven_years_clutching_knox_2
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php/tjmk/comments/innocence_project_seven_years_clutching_knox_3
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php/tjmk/comments/innocence_project_seven_years_clutching_knox_4
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php/tjmk/comments/innocence_project_seven_years_clutching_knox_5
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php/tjmk/comments/innocence_project_seven_years_clutching_knox_6
And of course:
Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/20/19 at 11:59 AM | #
The minute I heard Knox was “defending” Rodney Reed I suspected he was a no-good thug who was not wrongfully convicted. I didn’t have enough time or desire to dig into his case. Thanks for doing so, The Machine. What an awful person Reed is and so much concrete evidence against him. So he’s a liar like Knox, what’s new. Does it make Knox feel less dirty to consort with such dregs?
***
@Peter Quennell, yes, Knox is tone deaf, a natural mimic and imposter. The posturing, posing, and theatricality are the real Knox. Can you believe she wants to hear Meredith’s voice again? It’s more likely she has some insatiable curiosity about how Meredith felt and what she experienced in her final death throes.
Does she want to hear Meredith say, “you won”? Or to say, “I forgive you”? or to hear her say, “You were tougher than I was after all. I didn’t think you had it in you to fight me.” What does she want to hear from the woman she punched and stabbed and despised in life, yet who was gentle enough with Knox to comfort her and support her when Knox revealed her dilemma about multiple boyfriends and one-night stands, and Meredith told her something to the effect that “maybe you are just not meant to be someone who should have casual sex.”
Meredith was sympathetic to Knox who had real questions about the meaning of sex. Meredith tried to help her feel more secure, to accept herself and gave her wise counsel when she told her not try to play the field with males to be like others, not to be a cookie cutter of some image of feminist reactionary hopping from bed to bed to prove freedom.
Meredith was very gentle and understanding and could have helped Amanda be true to herself better and not damage herself. Meredith could listen to the heart.
Another case of Meredith’s protective nature in the early days with Knox: she calmed things and pulled her out of a nightclub when she poured a drink over the head of the DJ. Knox was obviously wanting to cause trouble when intoxicated.
My guess is that Knox these days is remembering every kind word Meredith once spoke to her and regretting everything.
She may secretly dedicate her new good deeds of helping the “shamed and vilified” and the “wrongfully convicted”—Knox may silently dedicate this belated virtue to Meredith’s memory as a way to justify the lies she must persist in as cover.
Back to “unanswered questions” and wanting to hear Meredith’s opinion, her voice:
If Guede was the only one present when Meredith died, if he alone held Meredith’s neck with towels to stanch the bleeding, if Knox and Sollecito had fled the premises, Knox may very well have some “unanswered questions” about those final moments that she missed by running away. That much may be honest.
She might want to know if Meredith felt agony and pain and maybe Knox hopes not, hopes it was all over quickly and as painlessly as possible. This from a more mature and maybe secretly remorseful Knox than the shell of a person who described her roommates death from a cut throat as “blrrgh…yucky” on Perugia witness stand ten years ago.
OR on the other hand, could she want to know how horrible the death really felt? Could she be that ghoulish? You tell me. Maybe she’s Janus and it depends on which face she wants to show that day, that hour. Ever changing in her feelings, unknowable? Confused and mercurial? who is the real Knox or is there one?
It’s so bizarre that she would even speak the words however hollow they are, that she is desperate to hear Meredith’s voice again. Many commenters were not buying it.
It seems that what resonated with Knox in the interview with Jennifer Levin’s friends, were the words about the killer’s hate and misery.
The loving friend who wanted to talk to Jennifer about the twisted relationship with the young preppy, the good-looking 5th Avenue guy who killed her in Central Park, the desire to understand what Jennifer and Robert had together emotionally prior to the rage, if they had some kind of good relationship that went horribly awry and the unknown cause of that, perhaps it is things like that which made Knox say to Jennifer’s questioning friend, “I often think of Meredith that way.”
The whys and the reasons affection or friendship can turn to white hot rage due to one or two insults—perhaps that’s what happened between Knox and Meredith and Knox wishes now that they had been able to talk it through instead of the meltdown of violence.
Knox also says that when a life is cut short, to try to make sense of the sudden loss we make up stories to fill in the crucial gaps. That statement unwittingly reveals an echo of Knox’s made up stories after Meredith’s death.
She goes on to say that these stories don’t really fill in the gap, which then must be filled (my words) by some sort of vague philosophizing “to make sense of the senseless”...“at the broader level of society.”
Does she mean that she tries to find some distant good that came out of the crime, or tries to understand how the crime impacted many people in society beyond herself, that somehow good might come out of evil, that if she helps wrongfully convicted people it’s an atonement and Meredith’s death ushered in much justice for others if it frees the truly innocent from prison??
She’s never going to make sense of the senseless in any straightforward clean way as DavidB ? said because unlike the once treacherous but finally honest Lorena Bobbitt, Knox clings to her mask.
She clothes herself in lies. She remains in her smoke-filled room hiding from truth to make money and to save face with family especially.
Posted by Hopeful on 11/20/19 at 05:13 PM | #
@Hopeful I doubt Knox feels any regret or remorse at all, other than that she was arrested, imprisoned and convicted.
The unfair annulment of the sentences serves as merely a pyrrhic victory for they were not declared ‘innocent’ but just ‘insufficient evidence’; not even Marasca-Bruno could find them ‘not guilty’, full stop.
One reason sociopaths have a well-deserved reputation for being the skilled con-merchants and grifters of this world is precisely because they have learned to mimic other people’s appropriate responses, not having any themselves.
When Jennifer’s friend said, I wish I could hear her voice again, Knox paused for for just a few beats too long (so no spontaneity there, then) before mimicking the emotion and claiming she felt exactly the same about Meredith.
Classic manipulative behaviour. Note her chumminess with tv presenters. All learnt and imitated from other, genuine people.
I suspect we saw the real Amanda Knox in the Netflix film where she spits out a four-letter word, aggressively proclaiming ‘You don’t know me’.
By your deeds we do know you.
***
@TheMachine I saw this Reed case on the Death Row tv series. You are right, Reed is a slam dunk liar when he claims he was having an affair with the woman he allegedly murdered. It is all very obvious he did it.
Posted by KrissyG on 11/21/19 at 03:57 AM | #
Kudos Hopeful, KrissyG, Peter, Machine and all. Superb work and comments and thank you from me.
What a whitewash was Dr Phil’s sycophantic interview. His unctuous faltering voice and concerned brow wrinkling set the tone.
There were to be no probing questions, nothing awkward for his interlocutor. Just another tedious and well worn reiteration of past lies with Knox more emboldened with every telling.
Dr Phil has nailed his colours to the mast of the Rodney Reed is innocent ship, as has Knox, thus they are indulging in mutual virtue signalling exercise. He is a self anointed champion of the underdog but has a chequered career littered with instances of questionable behaviour.
His show frequently involves the exploitation of vulnerable types with serious problems. It’s voyeuristic and shallow. No-one should be fooled by his avuncular presence.
He obviously has contempt for his audience, foregoing research for good viewing figures. Amanda Knox is nothing if not a draw!
“I am in blood stepped in so far that should I wade no more. Returning were as tedious as go o’er.”
Posted by pensky on 11/21/19 at 05:29 AM | #
Hi Hopeful,
You wrote: “My guess is that Knox these days is remembering every kind word Meredith once spoke to her and regretting everything.”
I beg to differ. Amanda Knox isn’t a nice American gal who had a bad day at the office - a victim of unfortunate circumstances. She is a sadistic sex killer who wanted to inflict as much physical and emotional pain on Meredith as possible before wiping her from existence.
Knox and Sollecito repeatedly stabbed and slashed Meredith whilst Guede was sexually assaulting her. There were 43 bruises and wounds on Meredith’s body.
Judge Matteini made the observations about Knox:
“Meredith was a girl full of life and enthusiasm, who for the sole purpose of having some pleasure and sensation during a boring day spent smoking joints, was subjected to acts of brutality and cruelty that are disgusting to any normal person.
In such a situation the danger of repetition of the crime is certainly very high and can’t be considered to have diminished due to the mere passage of time, during which as a reminder you have never shown any sign of remorse or reconsideration of your life.”
Even the behaviors you mention in your motion requesting release, which are presented as being in your favor, could be read differently in the opinion of this judge.”
Your conduct after the murder is symptomatic of a personality which, considering your young age, provokes no small measure of dismay and apprehension, considering how extremely easy it was for you to control your states of mind.”
Judge Riccarelli stated:
[Knox was] “privy of any refraining inhibitions and could reoffend.”
“From the reconstruction there is the concrete possibility of reoffending and the role of Amanda Knox was by no means secondary.”
He also described her as “crafty and cunning” with a “multi-faced personality, unattached to reality with an elevated, one would say fatal capacity” to repeat her offence.
Amanda Knox’s actions after killing Meredith were cunning and crafty. She and Sollecito put a plan into action to deflect attention away from themselves almost immediately after the murder.
They threw Meredith’s two mobile phones into Elizabeth Lana’s garden shortly after midnight, so that nobody could hear Meredith phones ringing and realise she was lying dead in her room the following morning.
Knox and Sollecito were convicted of staging the break-in by Judge Massei and Judge Nencini. Knox definitely staged the break-in. Her blood was mixed with Meredith’s blood on the floor of Filomena’s room.
Judge Matteini noted that Knox hadn’t shown any remorse. On the contrary, she and Sollecito displayed glee in the days following Meredith’s murder - they were laughing and joking at the police station whilst everyone else was crying. The colour CCTV images from the boutique show Knox laughing as if she didn’t have a care in the world.
Her inappropriate comments were another red flag that there is something seriously amiss:
”The strange thing is after all that has happened I want to write a song about all this.
“It would be the first song I have written and would speak about how someone died in a horrible way and for no reason.
”How morbid is all that? I’m dying of hunger. I really want to say that I could murder a pizza but that doesn’t seem right. Laura and Filomena (Knox and Meredith’s flatmates) are really upset.“
Knox tried to frame an innocent man for rape and murder. She repeatedly accused Diya Lumumba of murder even though she knew he was innocent. Look at her comments from her witness statements and her letter to her lawyers:
I vaguely recall that he [Diya Lumumba] killer her [Meredith Kercher].“
“...but Patrick had sex with Meredith, with whom he was infatuated, but I do not recall whether Meredith had been threatened beforehand.”
“I am really afraid of Patrick, the African boy who owns the pub call ‘Le Chic’“.
“In my mind I saw Patrik in flashes of blurred images. I saw him near the basketball court. I saw him at my front door. I saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over my ears because in my head I could hear Meredith screaming.“
“I stand by my [accusatory] statements that I made last night…in these flashbacks that I’m having, I see Patrick as the murderer”.
“I didn’t lie when I said I thought the killer was Patrik“.
“I really did think he [Diya Lumumba] was the murder“.
Knox didn’t retract her false and malicious allegations against Diya Lumumba the whole time he was in in prison. She had the opportunity to retract her false accusations against him when she appeared before Judge Matteini on 8 November 2007, but she said nothing to help him.
Knox still hasn’t apologised to Diya Lumumba for trying to frame him for rape and murder or paid him the compensation she owes him. She’s been too busy trying to profit from murdering Meredith. She apparently received £2.6 million for writing Waiting to Be Heard and she asked the ECHR for 2.7 million euros in compensation.
It’s beyond obscene that Amanda Knox is pretending to be a victim of a miscarriage of justice and making thousands of dollars every time she speaks to gullible dupes at events organised by the Innocence Project.
The bottom line is Amanda Knox is evil - a cruel and sadistic psychopath. She has no conscience or moral compass. The only thing she regrets is getting caught and spending four years in prison.
Posted by The Machine on 11/21/19 at 06:34 AM | #
Thanks Hopeful and Machine for an enlightening exchange. It has promptedthe next post up now, about Knox tellingly not maximizing her financial gains.
Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/22/19 at 09:48 AM | #
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