Saturday, September 25, 2021

Comparing The Kercher & Petito Cases: What’s Similar, What Differs

Posted by Our Main Posters

Timeline uploaded this past Thursday

Long post. Click here to go straight to Comments.

1. Overview Of Petito Case

Gabrielle “Gabby” Petito and Brian Laundrie met when at high-school on Long Island a few miles east of New York.

Brian’s parents moved to western Florida south of St Petersburg, apparently in 2015 when their house was bought (for just over $100,000), and they run a juicing-machine-sales business from there.

Gabby and Brian became engaged, and moved in with them down there. Neither have full college degrees, but Gabby has some nutritionist training and did work. Brian? Not clear.

Seemingly a bright and loving couple, they had established a way of traveling to great locations and mostly sleeping in a small van Gabbie owned.

They reported all this “van life” on social media video which had a sizeable following and so would have given them some sort of financial return.

This latest trip had taken them west from New York to southern Utah, where, with various incidents reported en-route, they headed north through eastern Utah to western Wyoming.

There, a week ago, just outside a dispersed camping ground, Gabby’s lifeless body was found. She had been dead for possibly three weeks.   

2. Similarities

1. In the US, these are perhaps the highest-profile murder cases in recent years

2. The two girls were of approximately the same age; both sets of parents are divorced.

3. Each girl was killed by someone seemingly sociopathic and in a psychotic rage.

4. Each presumed killer knew their victim well; signs of tension were seen by friends.

5. Each presumed killer rearranged the crime scene and worked on creating an alibi.

6. Each of the suspected killer’s parents circled the wagons and hired hardline help.

7. In each case national-level law-enforcement and their excellent labs became involved.

3. Differences

1. In the US Gabby has about 100% of public support; Meredith was deliberately ignored.

2. Gabby built a large following on social media; serious student Meredith not so much.

3. Local police in Utah and Florida made critical mistakes; in Italy, they made none.

4. Meredith’s family were illegally stalked; Gabby’s two sets of parents are revered.

4. Mysteries remaining

1. Why did Laundrie fly back to Florida leaving Gabby alone in Salt Lake City Utah for a week? Did he need a new prescription for mental-health-related meds?

2. Why did the cops who accosted the pair north of Moab Utah not know HE had been reported hours before for hitting Gabby on a Moab street? [resolved]

3. Did Laundrie’s extended psychotic-rage incident in a Jackson Wyoming restaurant (some 30 miles south of where she was found), which Gabby apologized to staff for, lead to her death?

4. Oddly, around the time of death, Laundrie hitchhiked twice, from way north of the campground, heading back south; was he trying to create an “I wasn’t there” alibi?

5. Gabby’s death is officially a homicide; where exactly was her body found, was it buried, and what was the cause of death? [resolved]

6. Why did Brian drive back to Florida in Gabbie’s van after seemingly trying to create an alibi and then fail to report and refuse to talk?

7. Where exactly is he now?

Below: Smart, but watch with caution. This was before Gabby’s body was found, and entertains a long trip west of the Tetons, impossible once the date of Laundrie’s Jackson restaurant meltdown is factored in.

Posted by Our Main Posters on 09/25/21 at 09:40 AM in


(1) Apart from highlighting the notorious media tilt in our case, some concentration on this one should be of help in showing that American law enforcement systems are all over the map and letting way too many people get hurt.

The local Utah and Florida police have been taking a lot of heat and the Moab police have launched an investigation into whether they dropped the ball - apart from an Arches Park Ranger who happened to come by,  they clearly misread both Brian and Gabby, and criminal psychologists have been pointing out how they could so easily have saved her life.

And the local Florida police are heavily criticised for not putting the heat on Laundrie when he came back from Wyoming alone - in Gabby’s van. Major systems weakness there.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 09/26/21 at 03:33 AM | #

(2) This is really the first case in which law enforcement and main media are giving social media a lot of credit for tips and theories that have advanced the case.

Gabby was reported as missing for three weeks, and it was social-media videos that broke the news on where her van had been parked and thus where her body could be found.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 09/26/21 at 03:33 AM | #

(3) The huge Redddit chat site has tens of thousands of comments on the case; you can find the front page of the “sub” here with the newest posts & comments at the top.

Twice a day a general thread is opened up. Quite a few know about good systems there. If a book with a systems angle on this case is written, the writer could do worse than cull that site (and this!)

Posted by Peter Quennell on 09/26/21 at 03:34 AM | #

(4) The US’s CBS/48 Hours has long been our nemesis, airing biased, inflammatory and factually incorrect reports about Meredith’s case.

That said, their one-hour broadcasts every Friday night are usually the best of the true-crime reports, and normally deserve some respect.

Here is last night’s report on Gabby’s case; on Sunday night, CNN will also air a one-hour report.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 09/26/21 at 03:35 AM | #

(5) Amendment to this point. “2. Why did the cops who accosted the pair north of Moab Utah not know HE had been reported hours before for hitting Gabby on a Moab street?”

It’s now out that the cops who stopped the pair just north of Moab were indeed told by the dispatcher that Gabby had been hit.

I’ve stayed in Moab. The businesses need a good reputation for tourist safety. Three girls staying there just died. My guess is those cops will be let go, and maybe even sued.


Added: Now the police chief has taken a leave of absence, possibly because Moab businesses are so mad at the cops for hurting them.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 09/26/21 at 07:26 PM | #

(6) We have the coordinates of where Gabby was found. Paste this into Google Earth.

43°46’35.10"N 110°29’43.00"W

The camping van had been about 300 yards away, on the south side of that stream.

43°46’32.69"N 110°29’54.42"W

Was Brian setting up a scenario of a kidnap/murder while he was off hiking on his own? And then got cold feet? Maybe he should have sought advice from Knox, who still sticks with her hollow claims.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 09/27/21 at 12:04 AM | #

(7) We have some details of the work record of Gabby from the time she left school.

She worked in a juice bar on Long Island for a while, and then she was a much-praised restaurant hostess or waitress in a seaside town in North Carolina; she presumably made a lot in tips.

She then moved to Florida to be with Brian. She worked with him in a Publix supermarket, and her final job was in a Taco Bell.

To me, this is odd. You can ask just about anyone in their early 20s working within 100 miles of NYC and they will tell you that they are also still in school (meaning a university or community college) working on a diploma or degree.

So she might have been the lone exception in her graduating high-school class. Why-so?

Brian worked in that Publix supermarket; I don’t yet see what other jobs he may have had. Nothing suggests he was exceptional at any systems, the magic key to all success these days.

And yet on Reddit it is said that he showed the unpleasant attitude online of thinking he was the smartest guy in the room. NPD? There is talk that he carried a gun. 

Gabby’s parents’ two houses would be worth around $1 million each in that area of Long Island so they’d be high-earners.

Brian’s parent’s house is still worth less than 1/3 of that, video taken inside suggest it is very plain. They were on a modest income - and that may now be gone, a concern going forward. To me, they come across as worn-out.

Gabby saved hard, but it is said that money was tight between the two. (That is one reason why it is such a puzzle that Brian flew back to Florida while she stayed in the Salt Lake Airport Hampton Inn. A couple of thousand blown right there.)

Commendably, Gabby was the one trying to build a brand and to monetize the trip on social media (which pays for advertising hits if posters want that) to pay their bills. Brian was actually dismissive of that (and apparently of many other things about her)  in saying to the Moab police that she was working on “her little blog”.

They were planning to get married, but with a joint income peaking intermittently at only U$30 an hour it is hard to see how they could afford a house or healthcare - or a family for that matter.

This all reeks to me of bad choices, no good plans, and underlying tensions. Perhaps troubled psychology on both sides, hidden behind a very sunny front.

They sure have put domestic violence and cop training for this on the national radar screen. “Upper level systems” on this front might improve. Gabby’s parents have announced a foundation to help girls that end up trapped. That’s a worthy system in itself.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 09/27/21 at 12:40 AM | #

(8) We have the Google Earth coordinates for the small area in Moab where (1) Gabby and Brian first stayed, (2) their reported fight took place, (2) one of the two other girls who were murdered the day after had worked (seemingly an unrelated crime), and (4) the motel Brian was made to stay in by the cops.

38°34’30.00"N 109°33’6.80"W

We also have the coordinates for the Arches National Park sliproad where the infamous episode with the Moab cops took place.

38°36’56.84"N 109°36’50.05"W

And the coordinates for Gabby’s Salt Lake City hotel.

40°46’23.76"N 112° 1’14.46"W

Also the coordinates for the Jackson restaurant Merry Piglets where Laundrie’s meltdown played out.

43°28’52.55"N 110°45’44.54"W

Also the Florida house of Brian’s parents where the two had lived.

27° 4’5.03"N 82°12’3.21"W

And also the swampy reserve where the parents say Brian left their car (unaccountably, they later went there and brought it home) where the FBI now leads a search based on unreleased intelligence.

27° 7’41.63"N 82°20’3.47"W

(Everybody knows how to drop down to street view, right? Wave the mouse-pointer around at top-right and an orange icon will appear; drag that to blue lines that will appear.)

Posted by Peter Quennell on 09/27/21 at 09:09 AM | #

(9) @Peter Quennell, Thank you for link to Reddit re:Gabby Petito, to Dog the Bounty Hunter video where he thinks Brian Laundrie is on the Appalachian Trail, not the Florida swamp.

BL spent months on the Appalachian Trail one time, was said to camp for weeks with simply his backpack. The comments at some of the websites were filled with info, unconfirmed info but here’s some of it:

*BL’s mom worked for the DA in New York before the Laundries moved to FL.

*BL’s parents were wanting to divorce. Gabby & BL knew this. Where would they live then? They’d been residing at the Laundries’ home (bad idea) together despite a broken wedding engagement.

My thought: Could BL’s odd return from out West when he left Gabby at a hotel for a few days to supposedly return to FL to “help his Dad with a storage unit” be to help his mom and dad move their things out of family home to divorce?

Had the van trip out West been to get out of his parents’ hair while they went through divorce? maybe this is why BL’s parents act so weird and guilty in videos of them after he returned?

*Some think he’s in Canada. Slipped over border using fake vaccination card.

*Credible sighting of BL in Canada by flight attendant at hotel. He’d gone to wrong hotel, then drove away. She got CCTV image of him and told FBI.

*BL has uncle connected to Yachts. Is BL in Bermuda?

*Gabby and BL took trip to California before the van life trip.

*BL likes mass killing games like Hotline Miami.

*BL loves book “Fight Club”, made a customized bookmark for his copy.

*BL’s art is very dark. He called Gabby “hunny” and has drawing of tombstone with hunny written on it. His playlist song is about the death of a hunny badger.

*BL was reading book, “Lullaby” as he goes to Moab.

*BL and Gabby were reading books on serial killers, out loud together.

*BL put stickers on Gabby’s van after her death, in patterns perhaps with her zodiac sign or as taunts to police.

*BL maxed a perfect score on SAT test: 2400

*BL hates plastic water bottles, goes barefoot outdoors, lives out characters from books.

*BL likes Radiohead song, “Just” (one person says it’s about demon possession)

*BL has novel, “Annihilation”.

*BL is artist. Gabby is artist.

*Yosemite means killer.

*BL’s drawing his Instagram man with wolf head holds knife to cut the phone line, blood on the knife.

*BL designed bizarre masks.

*BL’s last playlist is “Self-consumption”.

*Eminem’s song, “Stan”...what if Gabby was pregnant like Stan’s girlfriend in song?

*BL possibly (maybe it’s a stretch) killed 2 women at the Moonflower right before he killed Gabby? One of them had called 911 to report him abusing Gabby.

*BL is misogynist, likes Harley Quinn and the Joker.

*BL called Gabby his “sidekick”.

*Gabby wore triangle necklace. BL put triangle shaped sticker on van. Triangle with all seeing eye (evil eye) may represent a curse put on someone out of jealousy.

*BL likes Krusty the clown.

Dog the Bounty Hunter thinks BL is not a very tough outdoorsman, maybe a 6 on a scale of 10. The parents misdirected police when they said BL had gone to FL swamp.

General opinion: BL is a narcissist who was jealous when Gabby’s van life videos made her popular. He’s 23 years old, still living with his parents.

*BL as narc. needs to feel superior. Highly competitive, envied Gabby and tormented her at least emotionally. Maybe made van dirty, which she hated. Didn’t support her blog.

*BL has sleep disturbances. He hears voices.

*When police stopped Gabby and BL in white van, they separated them for a cooling off period. Police asked her if she had a last message for BL. Gabby said “Remind him about his phone charger, he always forgets it.” She was a caretaker but he a con man. He had lied to police, said he didn’t have a phone, but then why she talk about his phone charger?

*BL likes Minny the Moocher cartoon.

*Gabby had tattoo of BL’s horoscope sign, Scorpio, on her finger. They watched the stars at night out in the desert on the van trip.

*BL had book on “autism burnout”.

This is all just random comments from the links you gave, but extremely interesting: thank you, Peter.

Some true crime YouTubers are doing a deep dive into all the horoscope stuff, saying Gabby was on cusp of Pisces-Aries and a dreamer, gentle; was strangled and placed in water like her water sign.

Others say her body had a bullet in it, that the 2 women supposedly “married” were raped and had multiple bullets in them. There were bullets in the logs and tree trunks near Gabby’s body.

Some odd connection with The Moonflower Murders, The Magpie Murders.

Main thing is that Dog the Bounty Hunter believes BL is an avid outdoorsman and that’s where to look for him, but not in FL swamp.

I believe BL has read the bomber & survivalist Eric Rudolph’s online manifesto and may be hiding up in the N.Carolina wilderness. Eric Rudolph ran from FBI and survived hidden there for 5 years despite modern technology, heat seeking tools that detect human body, helicopter flyovers bloodhounds, etc.

Rudolph had his “Robinson Crusoe running from the Law” type Manifesto printed online I think it was last year (2020), with incredible details of how he evaded capture. I read the entire manifesto.

Also, Peter Quennell said that Gabby worked at a restaurant called “Smoke on the Water” in Wilmington, NC before moving to FL. She lived in a small NC coastal town called “Carolina Beach”. I’ve been to Carolina Beach and vacationed at nearby Kure Beach, NC.

*BL and Gabby had been together for 7 years. They’d had several breakups and re-unifications since being high school sweethearts. She was sophomore at some NY high school. He was a junior when they first met.

Posted by Hopeful on 09/27/21 at 04:18 PM | #

(10) A quite telling set of catches by Hopeful there. Some are intentionally funny but most are true.

Laundrie’s bizarre music & literature tastes are definitely for real… shades of RS and AK for sure.

The divorce thing could be for real. It might have been tiresome with a grown son and his girlfriend around the house. As I suggested up above everybody seemed low-income, at least for now. 

The two girls connected to the Moonflower Co-op sadly killed were at a remote campground in the mountains east of town on the day when Gabby and Laundrie were already headed to Salt Lake City.

The notorious Eric Rudolph set off four bombs, one right in Olympic Park when the Atlanta summer games were on, and killed two people and injured many more. An innocent guy, Richard Jewell, who actually saved lives was hounded by law enforcement for months - a recent Clint Eastwood film was about him.

The Appalachian Trail goes for hundreds of miles along the Blue Ridge Mountains; there is a great roller-coaster highway with some amazing views along there too. On both sides of those mountains there is dense forest most of the way, and it’s in that forest that Laundrie might be. 

Dog the Bounty Hunter has found some perps on the FBI’s Most Wanted List. He relies in part on murky sources who keep their distance from the FBI.

Right this minute, Mr Dog is in the Breaking News. He’s found where the 3 Laundries went on their camping trip - the FBI might have long known - to a peninsula with some islands nearby at the north entrance to Tampa Bay. He has a report that 3 Laundries entered the park but only 2 left.


Added: as of Wednesday he has a team with dogs searching those islands. Big Egmont Key seems the most promising.

27°35’10.37"N 82°45’45.88"W

Posted by Peter Quennell on 09/27/21 at 08:55 PM | #

(11) Timeline: this seems the best timeline so far. There’s hard proof of almost every point, like messages sent.

Note the many, many question-marks from August 25th to 30th.  FBI’s triangulation of phones could transform this.

07 02 Leave Long Island NY
07 05 Monument Rock Kansas arrive
07 08 Colorado Springs arrive
07 10 Dunes NP arrive
07 16 Zion NP arrive
07 20 Cedar Breaks NP arrive
07 21 Bryce NP arrive
07 26 Mystic Hot Springs arrive
07 30 Canyonlands NP arrive
08 01 Last message on Instagram
08 06 Moab arrive ??
08 10 Jaye Foster talks near Moab
08 12 Moab/Arches police stop
08 13 Moab to Salt Lake City (SLC)
08 14 1 Gabby Airport Hamptom Inn
08 14 2 Laundrie flies to Florida
08 18 Gabby uploads 8 min video
08 21 SLC Ubereats from Dad
08 23 Laundrie back in SLC
08 24 Leave SLC last firm sighting
08 24 Ogden Monarch building
08 25 1 Tetons Park south end
08 25 2 Jenny Lake Baker sees??
08 25 3 Last Instagram ??
08 26 Van videoed by Bethunes
08 27 1 Gabby sends photo ??
08 27 2 Jackson Merry Piglets row
08 27 3 Gabby dead earliest
08 27 Ashton Idaho ID ??
08 27 Bulwinkle YW 19:00 ??
08 28 1 Van seen in same place
08 28 2 Laundrie hitchhiking ??
08 29 1 Elk hunters see van ??
08 29 2 BL Jackson gas station ??
08 30 Gabby dead latest
09 01 Laundrie back at North Port
09 06 1 Laundries camp trip start
09 06 2 Last firm date Laundrie seen
09 11 Petitos report Gabby missing
09 12 Laundrie now person of interest
09 13 Parents claim BL last seen
09 19 Gabby’s body found Teton Park
09 21 FBI announce death is homicide
09 23 Misuse of credit card charge

Posted by Peter Quennell on 09/28/21 at 07:32 AM | #

(12) Many here will have done those same parks, most often on trips lasting from one to four weeks.

They’d been on the road for 2 months. Any lessons we can learn from the above? I can suggest a few.

1. Such a tiny van seems like a really bad idea for such a long trip. There’s no toilet, no refrigerator, no stove, no shower, no laundry, and no permanently available beds for two.

2. These were the summer months and even in that high country air-conditioning every night is a big assurance of folks sleeping well.

3. They did have a tent. Smart campers would also have a good table, good chairs, and good lights (and balanced meals), and probably a generator; did they?

4. Portable toilets are often mandatory in unserviced campgrounds. Where did they go? How often did they shower? Did they smell?

5. Except for the start and the finish, the dates are fairly spread out, suggesting a lot of demanding hiking and climbing was going on.

6. Cell phone coverage is non-existant in huge areas, even in Teton National Park. Hooking up a computer to the Internet is often tough.

7. Running a video blog on a small computer with no permanent place of its own would be time-consuming, and tiresome and boring to the other person.   

8. Even in a van the costs for gas and camping sites and showers and food and occasional hotels mount up, and costs could rise above $200 a day.

9. Many “van lifers” give it up because they get tired and, especially, lonely, and they actually miss being with colleagues at work.

10. Looks like they bit off a lot more than they could chew and real physical and mental exhaustion was setting in.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 09/28/21 at 10:33 AM | #

(13) @Peter Quennell, you said it: “they bit off a lot more than they could chew” with that nightmarish van trip “and real physical and mental exhaustion was setting in.” Oh so right.

Absolutely right, you echoed my thoughts entirely.

The van life was a disaster waiting to happen. Aside from my aversion to their immoral lifestyle (useless parents to allow this behavior) but it was just stupid and laborious, a recipe for explosive tempers and danger.

You perfectly analyzed the van life factors that make for a miserable semi-gypsy life which over time proves hideously tough, exhausting. Constant roving into the unknowns with no civilized conveniences, horrible for a female.

It’s nothing but endless difficulties and stress and labors while stuck in a tiny camper in the same person’s face and space for waaaay too long. Just staying clean and stench-free with clean clothes on would be hard.

To think of the added stress of Gabby trying to edit her blog with all these difficulties…poor thing. She held out valiantly all things considered.

This ill advised van trip was a horrible stressor to two already high strung people, neither one very well-balanced.

Brian didn’t have the ability to support anyone’s hopes but his own. Gabby was blind as a bat to his peculiar personality and the male dynamic. Playing married but not truly committed (put a ring on it) put them both in a false position. It breeds fear in a woman especially.  Never gonna end well.

Brian Laundrie might have been trying to push Gabby on the hikes and long hours in the wilderness climbs, to total exhaustion, competitively wanting to break her.

Anybody could snap.

Posted by Hopeful on 09/28/21 at 01:22 PM | #

(14) Factoring in Hopeful’s sharp psychology insights, this does suggest a perfect storm of domestic violence on the move. Getting the toxic physical and mental contexts straight really matters if better systems are to prevent deaths.

Note that every year a number of people die in similar circumstances in the national parks and elsewhere. Their mental faculties might not have been at 100%. Long trips in small vans was being heavily promoted as a fun lifestyle by the pair. Now the dangers are highlighted too.

Yesterday Gabby’s parents and step-parents gave a deeply compelling press conference. I was struck that systems change via the new Gabby Foundation is their way of ensuring her helpful persona lives on. It was 18 minutes long and highly worth a watch.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 09/29/21 at 08:17 AM | #

(15) Not all of the second timeline YouTube embedded in the top post is standing up too well. It went up before Gabby was found, and before Laundrie’s meltdown in a Jackson restaurant was known. I commented thus:

RJ, I suggest this needs rethink, as zero proof of long trip west of Tetons. (1) Victor tale probably hoax. Dates clash: van seen at campground 26th and pair seen at Jackson restaurant 27th. Also nobody asks in Victor (on minor road west from south Jackson) about Yellowstone direction. (2) Yellowstone West tale possible but dates also clash. Laundrie was maybe in bar obtrusively ridiculing two dupes & giving name and city they’d remember - but on 26th van videoed in campground, on 27th Merry Piglets row in Jackson, last time Gabby seen alive. So on 28th? Possible. Or on 29th? That day Laundrie obtrusively hitchhikes from Yellowstone & West Yellowstone direction. Creating this alibi? “But I wasn’t there when Gabby died - and I have 5 witnesses”.

(The possible five are two at West Yellowstone and three when hitchhiking.)

Posted by Peter Quennell on 09/29/21 at 11:19 AM | #

(16) Under the same YouTube in the Comments thread David Ben-Abraham has some posts making the best argument against Laundrie’s guilt. It’s tough going though, as I tried to show.

Re David Ben-Abraham’s scenario. Yes, this could be what we hear in court - if Laundrie is still alive. It’s possible he had zero backbone and realized his prior brutal treatment of her would be Exhibit A. However I’d suggest (1) to study the Moab incident where he was trying to take off in HER van, possibly with her phone; (2) the Arches police stop and new recording where they did not ask for license/insurance reg and did not realize it was HER van; or that she was 100% the victim of abuse; (3) the Teton Valley timeline; that includes the horrific Jackson restaurant meltdown where Laundrie seemed seriously off his meds - last time she was seen; plus (4) no obvious time where she could have been killed (in a crowded campground?) if/when he was away; plus (5) his tale to the 2 hitchhiking ladies which was such a stretch. My guess is FBI will already know the murder scenario for sure because they’ll have triangulated the 2 phones from 08/25 to 08/30 when he seemingly destroyed the phones.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/01/21 at 09:04 AM | #

(17) A quiz. Re the Tetons valley (aka Jackson Hole) apart from (1) its great beauty and (2) being the main Yellowstone dormitory town, what two things is it famous for?

No peeking. Okay.

1. The United States federal reserve bank runs a much-reported annual economic retreat there, in a hotel overlooking a lake - well, except in 2020 and 2021 when it was virtual.

2. In the middle of Wyoming’s snowy winters, an average of 7.500 elk congregate there, in the National Elk Refuge.

Elk are tremendous fun - they have little fear, and like moose you can walk right up to them. Taking your life in your hands! They do pop off now and then.

Added: Inside Yellowstone there are penalties for not keeping your distance from the elk, moose, bears, wolves, and other wildlife. Bears have inflicted fatal attacks, especially bears with cubs.

Herds of elk walk through the centers of small towns elsewhere and sit down and chew the cud. They don’t even stare when people walk by.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/01/21 at 10:20 AM | #

(18) “Better systems in the pipeline” update…

By comparison Italy’s highly integrated justice machine is looking like a Swiss watch!!

So, let’s try for some pattern recognitions in the systems areas of this case.

#1. National: obviously the first out of the gate here in the US was the Gabby Foundation to help to fill a now-blatantly-obvious systems vacuum in protecting women who get trapped. It’s hard to pick a best YouTube on this yet, we need a few more days. The FBI may or may not be floundering on some aspects; we’ll keep a watch. 

#2. In Moab Utah, the local police are now taking even more heat. A new bodycam video has just been released showing that the cops knew more than we had realized and STILL engineered a fatal outcome.

Critical report:
1st bodycam:
2nd bodycam:

Note the ONLY one who read the psychology right was a woman park ranger - who just happened to come along to see what was up. A woman cop at every domestic-violence incident seems a no-brainer now.

#3. In Teton Valley Wyoming, a major turning point for the worse was the staff at the Pigglies restaurant not calling the cops even though Laundrie seemed dangerously off his meds and Gabby was apologizing for him. Gabby may have been dead just minutes after that.

The restaurant staff (all 3 were women) have confirmed the incident. But they have still not made public what Laundrie’s rage against them was about. Presumably the FBI know that.

#4. In North Port Florida and places nearby it’s too early to make a call. There is too much we are not yet being told by the FBI now running the case. The town and county though have just been hammered by a much-respected Florida sheriff because the local police let Laundrie walk free when Gabby was still not found - though he had returned in her van and her phone had been unresponsive for (then) four or five days.

#5. At family management level, checking in every day on such trips (or checking locations by a GPS app) seems a family “must”. When the Petitos reported Gabby lost,  her phone had been dead for 10 days or more (we dont have precise timing yet), and she had been dead for two weeks (timing not yet 100% too). Early action would not have saved her life - but it would have stopped Laundrie going on the run (at enormous cost).

#6. Gabby’s and Laundrie’s ill-though-out system for a 4-month, 5,000-mile trip, in a small and under-equipped van, was seen as exhausting and even dangerous in comment (12) up above. Ironically, early in September, Brian Laundrie & family went on a 2 or 3 night trip to a seaside park a few miles north and the camper they used (maybe 15 years old and bought used for maybe $5,000) fits on their pickup truck. It had all the basic facilities that might have helped to keep Gabby alive: good beds, table and chairs, water supply, power, gas, stove, refrigerator, generator, and toilet. Similar campers have air-conditioning too.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/01/21 at 11:47 AM | #

(19) @Peter Quennell, I remember when you took a trip out to Yellowstone, about 6 or 7 years ago. I thought it was to see the geysers? The elk sound impressive. Our local “Elks Club” is moving to new digs.

The YouTube above this comment has a good map, and McMurtrey the YouTube owner speaks so clearly, easy to listen to, like an old fashioned taste of Huntley-Brinkley Report, that well paced speech one can listen to a long time. Great facts, too.

I think Dog the Bounty Hunter stands to get a hefty reward if he brings in Laundrie. Not sure if it’s 30,000 euros or $30,000 U.S. dollars but good money.

Laundrie won’t last as long as Eric Rudolph on the run. Too much social media now, too many phone cameras. Rudolph’s run was before all the tech exploded. Plus Laundrie isn’t as tough as Rudolph.

The comment by David Ben-Abraham defending Laundrie is kind and well intended but comes from a guy who is decent, normal and with natural feelings, a guy who cannot imagine the depravity of a Laundrie. The FBI aren’t fooled, Laundrie is a type they’ve seen before.

Also, one comment elsewhere said Laundrie at the Bullwinkle Bar when he accosted locals who talked about their politics and seemed aggressive and irritable with them, MIGHT POSSIBLY have been Laundrie purposefully causing a scene to plant false clues in things he told them about his travels? If so, incredibly devious. Don’t put anything past him.

As for the police intervening more when they saw Gabby and Laundrie in domestic dispute and van hit the curb, I agree they need new procedures to deescalate dangerous disharmony among couples. If they’d taken Gabby into police station and had psych. counselors spend major time with her, call her parents to inform them and set up a practical plan for Gabby to fly home for a real separation period from Laundrie, she might still be alive.

I understand the cops can’t foresee every variable or control all events in the lives of fussing lovers.

I don’t blame them for any of this.

Gabby was deaf to police woman who told her it was a toxic relationship, because she was afraid to leave the van, unsure what to do, maybe broke, ashamed to call her family? which meant sticking with Brian.

If she’d only had help from police/social workers/Salvation Army or police ask her family to wire her travel money or local church to give her quick funds for a bus ticket or air fare.

She needed someone forceful and wise to arrange immediate return to her own family in New York or to her Father in FL, some sober practical course of action police could try to insist on?

but warn her to not go back to Brian at least for a long while after cooling off or back to the Laundries’ home in Northport, she might have survived and lived a happy life into her 90s?

Posted by Hopeful on 10/01/21 at 01:27 PM | #

(20) Those are all very good system-enhancement ideas. In the true-crime cases, one can take the side of the victim, or the aggressor, and use up time and moral energy in a blame game to no benefit of anyone.

Or one can look at how the systems jumped the tracks and promote corrections and perhaps save hundreds of lives. Many of us have done this here. For this same purpose I drop a lot of hints on Reddit (as do others) and this was one I posted today:

Tip for further digging. Moab police have a “victim advocate” called Karen DeKruger, who is normally called in for all DV and rape cases, and is especially trained. The cops are REQUIRED to loop her in. Even if she was not called to the scene, she could and should have interviewed Gabby the next day. She is mentioned here. [now behind paywall, reporter asked if she interviewed Gabby: “No comment”.]

I do keep wondering if in her work Gabby could have pushed her thinking and system skills a bit more (in the way that Meredith did).

She was selling herself a bit short. She comes from two bright and successful families. And yet she called it quits on study after high-school, and took a series of minimum-wage jobs? And devoted seeming hours a day to seeking highs on main social media threads - the “other pandemic” now?

And not only does Brian Laundrie seem even worse. As Hopeful already said, he got kicks out of dragging Gabby down. That “little blog” was VITAL to their monetizing the trip and building a brand and making the trip worth something.

Her own Long Island family heavily invested financially in her trip. And yet her reporting was so trivial, funny tik-tok stuff, but with few insights that might have put her or all her followers on a better plane.

Why did her parents not demand a bigger bang for the buck? A real purpose to the trip, worth investing in a better equipped van? Even figure out a purpose for Brian (the jealous outsider) too?

Seen as a systems enhancement project , this trip might have left Gabby alive, empowered,  and happy,  and knowing how to put Brian in his place - or left behind in the dust.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/01/21 at 06:19 PM | #

(21) I guess this note immediately above is Systems Area #7: at Individual Level (see #1-6 above).

Specifically Gabby’s, in this case. She was obviously disempowered and floundering and needing some guidance here.

Do you know what empowerment really is? Being on top of some systems. There is no other kind of empowerment, that’s always all it is.

But they do need to be fruitful systems for long-term gain. Not just any old systems. Pick & choose.

Gabby was seeking her empowerment from tiktok, instagram, twitter, facebook, and YouTube.

Like many now (more girls than boys) she was on top of those.

But it’s hard to make those pay the bills, and they hardly make for a career.

Which is why it’s such a pity that her Long Island families didn’t just use their funding lever to jump her onto a higher plane.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/01/21 at 07:55 PM | #

(22) And Systems Area #8: Legal systems, prosecutors’ aspects.

Here’s two very good explanations of the wiggle room (or lack of it) that future prosecutors of Laundrie will have.

Obviously, assuming that Laundrie is alive and caught. Still,  the FBI has a 95% conviction rate, and most of their convictions don’t even need a full trial.

Bounty Hunter Dog has usefully put this out for Laundrie and/or his family to meditate on: the big lever prosecutors have is the charge.

Between a death-sentence charge and a manslaughter charge.

Back in 2008 in Perugia prosecutors hinted that they were open to a hush-hush deal, that was what the “We don’t think Meredith’s death was pre-meditated” talk was all about.

Hush-hush because only the supervising magistrate (Matteini) could officially give the nod (she may have given the nod to Dr Mignini behind the scenes). 

Lawyers for RS and AK wanted to go for it (all of them believed in guilt); but the AK and RS fathers turned them down.

Foolishly: the pair were convicted of murder, of course.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/02/21 at 11:01 AM | #

(23) More on Systems area #3: how the Merry Piglets restaurant staff in Jackson might have given Gabby some crucial help.

I started a thread on this on Reddit (it’s by the real me, the Reddit wizard gave me the user name).

The Moab cops devoted six man-hours or more to the Moab/Arches traffic stop. Here the Jackson cops were not even called in, though the potential for harm down the road was substantially worse.

So #3 includes: how restaurant staff should respond when a lunatic is on the loose. Jackson restaurant staff really should have called it in. That could have saved Gabby’s life.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/02/21 at 12:31 PM | #

(24) Several comments on this valuable thread on the tragic Gabby Petito case:

1) I agree the cops should have been called on Laundrie for his scary Merry Piglets outburst. I once almost called 911 in a restaurant, when a mother carried her crying toddler to the door and was threatening to “leave her in the car alone” if she didn’t stop crying. If the mom had done that, and come back into the restaurant, I was poised to dial 911 and report her for child abuse. (Although of course, the mom even *saying* that to the child was abuse, but not something I could prove at that time.)

2) I relate so much to the sadness of this case. In late August when this was all happening, but of course before anyone was aware of it, I was thinking of the George Michael song “Father Figure” and posted it to Facebook. Now I associate the lyrics of this song with poor Gabby when I watch (what I can stand to watch of) the cop body camera video:

“So when you remember
The ones who have lied
Who said that they cared
But then laughed as you cried
Beautiful darling
Don’t think of me
Because all I ever wanted
Is in your eyes.”

Like in these lyrics, Laundrie was laughing and joking with the cops while Gabby was hysterical and crying. It makes me sad to think that, if only she had lived, Gabby would’ve found a much better man to be with, one who would have truly appreciated her.

Posted by Earthling on 10/03/21 at 04:24 AM | #

(25) Dog has added $10,000 to the reward money for apprehending Brian Laundrie. It’s now up to $180,000 reward to bring Brian in.

Bear hunting season starts in the NC mountains soon. Hunters will be in woods with dogs. A 53 year old engineer claims he spoke to BL around midnite over the weekend, in area near the Appalachian Trail. Said BL was in light colored pickup truck, seemed confused, wore a dark bandana on his head, and asked for road directions. BL said he’d had fight with girlfriend but things were OK and he was heading out to California to be with her.

The engineer, Mr. Davis, called 911, the FBI and Dog to tell them of the sighting. Said he had no doubt it was Brian Laundrie.

A commenter said BL’s grandparents live in New Bern, NC. That’s near Jacksonville, NC. I’ve been both places.

One said he might be returning to the area he grew up in as a child, in NY. Blue Point? or Blue something, I can’t recall.

Posted by Hopeful on 10/03/21 at 02:33 PM | #

(26) That’s a very moving song Earthling quoted for us. And Amen to this: “Like in these lyrics, Laundrie was laughing and joking with the cops while Gabby was hysterical and crying. It makes me sad to think that, if only she had lived, Gabby would’ve found a much better man to be with, one who would have truly appreciated her.”

So, more on S-A #7: The puzzling arc of Gabby. She seemed to have more opportunities than most. She came from a caring family, graduated from a fine high-school, seemingly was part of a group, could have gone straight on to do a degree, looked and dressed fine, and a commute to a job in Manhattan would have taken less than an hour each way.

There is a slight excess of women in Manhattan, because so many talents head here for careers and a ton of things to do pretty safely. There is a slight excess of men in the suburbs so her odds were not too bad.

There are some present mysteries though. It is hard to pinpoint where she made a wrong turn. When did Gabby’s parents divorce? Did that throw her for a loop? Did she really enjoy her time at school? Why did she not go on to study more? Did her parents have a college fund?

Why did she move to North Carolina to waitress? What was her circle like there? Did she talk of her ambitions there? When did she take up with Laundrie? They were not an item at school. What was life with the Laundries like? Was it tense? The parents are apparently in the middle of a divorce. That is weird: why didn’t one or other parent move out?

Was Laundrie on drugs or medication? Did he drink? Was he off his meds in Moab or Jackson? Did Gabby stay with him because she though she could set him right?

She appears to have become skilled at tiktok, instagram, twitter, facebook, and YouTube. What was the history of that? She planned the trip, she was trying to monetize it, and she got some funding from her dad. Was there a promise there?

She simply seems to have been better at systems, and was proving herself charismatic online. What was Laundrie’s responses to all of this? Did he feel outclassed? Did he feel her slipping away? Or was marriage at 23 just not his thing?

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/03/21 at 03:46 PM | #

(27) On Hopeful’s mention of the possible sighting of Laundrie in western North Carolina - where again there is a popular national park (Great Smokey Mountains); and Biltmore Mansion, the largest house in the US.

Are we seeing psy-op? The longer the FBI wait before bringing him in, the more of a wreck he will become. What was that alibi again? The FBI would sure like it if they did not even have to put him on trial, as with 95% of their cases. No death sentence, but off he goes for life.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/03/21 at 04:56 PM | #

(28) @Peter @Earthling, yes, Gabby’s death was such a waste. If she’d had time to mature, she surely would have found someone kinder and a true mate. She was too invested in caretaking others and hadn’t learned self worth or balance.

Peter Quennell’s questions if answered could tell us why. Why did she drift down to N.Carolina to waitress work? Why didn’t she pursue schooling? Did Laundrie influence her to “drop out”?

He was a great reader himself and yet maybe because of his insomnia he couldn’t face formal schooling. He wanted to live off the grid, minimize his costs, his obligations, not have to work hard.

What was life like when Gabby lived with him at the Laundrie house in Florida? That’s huge.

The fact Brian’s parents allowed an unmarried female to move into their home with their son, hints to me they were afraid of Brian. Afraid to say No.

I think divorce was the pivotal stressor.

Gabby’s parents divorced, no doubt Gabby felt untethered, depending on her age at time of family dissolution. Later her father moved down not far from the North Port, FL area to be near Gabby. It sounds like he didn’t protect her from BL despite that. Was she rebellious towards both of her parents? Were they lacking in parental love?

Then BL saw his parents were splitting up (maybe due to arguments over Gabby living in with them in North Port house?) so he went ape, felt lost, took out his anger and confusion on Gabby.

Like Knox, once far from home out in the Far West so foreign to him, with money tight, he flipped out?

He also by killing Gabby forced his parents to re-focus on HIM. BL seems for now to have stopped their divorce.

His entire family like poor Deanna and Curt Knox and Chris Mellas, Edda…they all had to suddenly focus on the defense of a major criminal in their family.

BL gets to laugh at his poor mom who once worked for a district attorney.

BL’s sister’s hubby was at one time in law enforcement in a Florida county near the Laundrie home, one comment said. Some say Cassie’s hubby who knows how LEO works, has aided BL’s escape. They say the family camping trip to DeSoto Park was a planning trip to talk about how to hide BL.

BL was told he had to find a new place to live, with parents starting divorce; he could not face a normal job it seems; he might have been selling drugs on the trip out west to fund their lifestyle? Gabby was trying to make honest money with a blog. Maybe BL was a born criminal, seeking the easy way to get money? I think he was willing to live rough and do without, the minimalist lifestyle but Gabby complicated that for him.

He told police in Moab during the famous video of DV traffic stop that he and Gabby were heading for Oregon to do volunteer work on an organic farm, and to stay with some of Gabby’s relatives in Oregon.

As Peter Quennell suspects, the FBI is doing psy-ops. They are matching wits with Brian and silently closing in. They know his ruse of telling a passerby that he was heading for California, was a sham.

Even YouTube crime analysts said the hitchhikers who picked Brian up after he probably killed Gabby, were lied to in order to confuse LEO.

Posted by Hopeful on 10/03/21 at 07:01 PM | #

(29) More on Gabby’s recent lifetime arc (S-A #7) again. This much-viewed interview by TV’s Dr Phil with her dad 1-2 days before she was found provides yet more factoids that aid our system-pattern recognition here.

1. From 4’00” he tells us Gabby and Brian became a thing maybe 2 1/2 years ago. So presumably only 19 years old at the time?

2. From 4’20” he says he never thought much of any of Gabby’s boyfriends, and used female names for them like “Breanna” for Brian. But he later says Brian seemed okay, though Gabby may have warned Laundrie how to warm him up.

3. From 5’18” he says a trip by the pair last year to the west coast was in a small Nissan Sentra saloon car he leased for them; not in a camping van.

3. From 13’05” he mentions 21 August as the last time Gabby (in Salt Lake City) and he talked - seemingly a long talk as they were ironing out bugs on the blog.

4. From 14’37” he mentions 25 August as the last time Gabby’s mom talked to her. Gabby had arrived in Teton valley just about then. (Elsewhere the 24th is the date, when Gabby tells her mom the relationship is rocky.)

5. At this time he also talks of strange texts from Gabby’s phone, on 27 and 30 August, seeming to sense Gabby did not originate them.

6. From 20’25” he says Gabby was born when he was still only 20 and “a mess” and her arrival saved his life.

7. From 23’00” he wants to apologize to Laundrie’s sister for thinking she brushed him off - new info suggests that she DID brush him off.

Points 1, 2 & 6 stand out as atypical.  Dr Phil’s questions were well researched but lacking. Nothing on Gabby’s academic arc? Nothing on Gabby’s employment arc? Nothing on the move to South Carolina? A pity. Maybe all 3 sparked by a divorce situation?

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/04/21 at 09:07 PM | #

(30) The point about the dad calling her boyfriends by girls names reminds me of Knoxs stepdad calling his kids buttheads (or something similar) on MySpace. It gives you a sense of someone unpleasant.

And similarly the having children at a very young age during a difficult period is similar to Knoxs parents.

I appreciate she is the victim but people are only attracted to mental cases when they’ve grown up around them, in my experience.

That’s my bit of speculation on this case 😊  It hasn’t made it across to the UK so thanks for drawing it our attention

Posted by HotAir on 10/05/21 at 08:28 AM | #

(31) Good catches HotAir.

Commentary from outside the US on Reddit seems mainly from Australia. Avid reporting is carried there on Rupert Murdoch vehicles, in his NY Post and Fox News here, and in his The Sun and Sky News in the UK.

The case gained media traction not simply because a white woman was missing; it was Laundrie’s weird arrival back in Florida alone in her van and then not explaining that did that.

(Suspicions are that the 2 strange texts and the 2 hitchhiking encounters and the race back to Florida were all one alibi: “I came back to the van in the woods to find she’d abandoned the trip, she’d said she wanted to do something else with a girl friend.” Maybe that’s what duped his parents.)


Yes we have noted that Knox did not luck out father-wise. Curt Knox married Edda seemingly angrily when Knox was on the way and divorced her seemingly angrily when the second daughter was on the way. Edda then sued him at least twice for child support. Knox and her sister initially had a nice space for their use in Curt’s house, but he downgraded that.

Knox complained about Chris Mellas seemingly taunting her often; she complained of him calling her “obtuse retard” in her prison diary as quoted in the Sarzanini book.

Gabby’s dad admits to Dr Phil that he cared for her interests forcefully but there seems no evidence yet that he was unkind to her. So if any claims emerge by Knox that they are similarly victims that’ll be another of Knox’s patent ghoulish lies. Knox actually has a lot in common with Laundrie.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/05/21 at 09:49 AM | #

(32) Breaking news in Florida (SA #4). The sister cracks.

“Brian Laundrie’s sister tells fugitive to ‘just come forward’ and turn himself in”

She’s just taken heat for seemingly saying she’d not known Brian was back after which proof emerged that she did-so and met with him. Also for brushing off the desperate Petitos.

Added: the sister cracks further? She and the family lawyer say Laundrie was last seen on 13th not 14th (he was reported missing on 17th).


Next to crack could be the father. It’s the mother making all those angry 911 calls about the commotion on their front lawn. And up in the air it seems.

I wonder how Gabby got along with the mother. Was Gabby her nemesis? Unfortunate move for Gabby to have moved in there? Unwittingly creating a pressure cooker?

More education and better jobs would surely have shed her of a seeming naivety. Which social media can have a way of sustaining. All giggles to the west coast? A fatal fake; but she was riding the social media tiger. Did Laundrie give off signs of hating it?

Gabby stood up to her dad so she was pretty forceful. Maybe that was why her boyfriends were wussies? Did she intrude too far into all of the Laundries’s comfort spaces? At university could she have met her real match?

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/05/21 at 10:33 AM | #

(33) More on the Jackson and van-trip areas (SA #3 and #6).

Jackson is HIGH! Some 6300 feet above sea level, 1000 feet higher than Denver the mile high city, 2000 feet higher than Salt Lake City. Lay altitude sickness on top of fatigue, and that could hurt in the first week.

(Folks born at those altitudes have extra-size lungs, and win marathons. The UN pays allowances for those posted above 8,000 feet. I never was but did missions to the capitals of Ethiopia (7,700 feet) and Bolivia (11,900 feet) and… erk!! In Colorado, you can actually drive above 14,000 feet. Cars get a bit slow.)

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/06/21 at 09:37 AM | #

(34) More key factoids on Moab-level systems (#2)

1. There are reports that the entire town feels under siege. Business owners are ticked off at the cops but everybody is holding their tongues because the next time THEY need the cops, the cops might not turn up. Wow.

2. The Moab cop whose release of the 2nd bodycam footage was delayed two weeks has cracked… well, actually it was two years ago, but he did an amazingly telling interview on broken police systems back then.

He might actually have deserved a better job till this. Via the first link I commented thus:

Remarkably interesting. He is very frank. He is actually questioning SYSTEMS that are not functioning too well. They are bogged down. That’s why Japan, China, and India have almost caught up, and why there is migration pressure from further south. Why jobs in central Utah are short. US systems are way too often imposed top-down, without participation at all. There’s no visioning say 5 years ahead, no plans, few systems skills, little or no buy-in at all. Zilch economic benefits. No wonder we are all ticked off!

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/06/21 at 11:38 AM | #

(35) One of our companion true-crime websites has uncovered quite a shocker if true.

The co-ordinates for where the camping van was seen and where Gabby was found are up above in Comment (6).

The south side of the stream, where she was likely killed if not in Jackson, is seemingly under Wyoming State jurisdiction, and the autopsy was done by the state.

The north side of the stream where she was found is a federal forest, and hence under FBI jurisdiction.

So if there is a jurisdictional dispute:

1. Gabby’s body is still being held in Wyoming; might this explain that?

2. There is telling evidence that made this a homicide, is it still under wraps because of this?

3. Does this also explain why the only charge filed so far is federal bank fraud?


Added: We have broken the code! The Feds own almost all the land in the entire valley (the one big exception is the private land in Jackson) and the State of Wyoming manages parts of it.

Gabby was found on federal land, federally managed. She may have been killed at the van on federal land, State of Wyoming managed. 

There is no jurisdictional fight as such. More a situation of getting the procedures and the law 100% right for any trial.

If no jurisdictional resolution then the FBI always gets the case in default.


Added: Yet another sign Laundrie worked hard on an alibi?

Petito’s stepfather said: ‘Her body was found — I guess it would be in front of a tent, if that’s what was there — or just in front of the fire ring… there was definitely a fire ring there.’

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/06/21 at 02:55 PM | #

(36) The Laundrie lawyer, a property lawyer out on Long Island, is suspected of rarely telling the truth, and this almost certainly is false.

Paying $2000 to save $200? Extending the trip? Gabby never told her parents that, and the pair still had a firm arrival date in Portland Oregon: just before Halloween, at October’s end. Making Laundrie look good? Relationship solid as a rock?

Worse, nobody has a clue where that storage unit is. Does it even exist? 

More likely: (1) Laundrie was off on yet another of Gabby’s abandonment punishments which he had repeated time and again; or (2) he needed a prescription and refill for some meds needed to be done in Florida.


There’s also a credible (3). On Reddit one of Laundrie’s coworkers at Publix said he came back to quit his job and to move items OUT of the house. His parents wanted the pair gone to facilitate their divorce, so he and Gabby would move back to New York.

Wow. The lawyer would sure not want that to be the headline. And MORE pressure on Laundrie. To New York to stay where? With her families? Now Gabby really sees him as a loser, and wants out? In one version of Gabby’s last call with her mom on 25 August, she implied the relationship was headed for the rocks.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/06/21 at 05:14 PM | #

(37) More evidence that the Laundrie lawyer, widely quoted verbatim in the media, is best at talking nonsense and blowing smoke?

(a) From the lawyer:

“Chris Laundrie was asked to assist law enforcement in their search for Brian at the preserve today… Since the preserve has been closed to the public, Chris has not been able to look for Brian in the only place Chris and Roberta believe Brian may be.”

(b) From law enforcement:

Josh Taylor, the North Port Police Department’s chief spokesman, told Fox News that his department did not ask for Chris Laundrie’s involvement – nor did police “postpone” it. “In no world would we be the agency asking the family to help search in an FBI led investigation,” he said…

Many disbelieving tweets here…


Added: Now Laundrie’s dad does indeed turn up at the swamp.

The sequence over several days may have been this:

1. Laundrie’s sister and lawyer earlier realize Plan A is a bust.

2. The lawyer puts it out there unilaterally that the dad is finally willing to help.

3. Local police deny any invitation and the FBI do not confirm.

4. Dad bites the bullet, and goes to the swamp, just a couple of miles north.

We don’t know much about the relationship of the dad. That presumably will all come out. Unlike the mom, maybe he was aggravated that Laundrie had no degree, no career, few friends, an offputting car, and an obnoxious presence online. And still lived at home.

Maybe he was the one pressing for a divorce? And for the items of Gabby and Brian to be moved out of the house? But of course no possibility the dad bumped the son off. Right?


Added. The FBI will have long ago reckoned that if the dad ever turned up at the swamp, that would be a pretty firm indicator that Laundrie is dead or gone.

Well done dad. You have narrowed down the search to the rest of the world.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/07/21 at 11:17 AM | #

(38) Rupert Murdoch’s media vehicles in the UK, US and Australia are doing a lot of the reporting, on the whole quite good.

But this “serial killer” suggestion in the UK Sun should never have made it past edit.

Where Gabby was found was well over 500 miles away from where the two Moab women were found. Brian Laundrie had just made that trip but they rule him out.


Added. The UK Sun now has several more substantive reports online. This one describes Gabby’s family, and how Gabby’s six siblings and four parents are adjusting.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/07/21 at 01:13 PM | #

(39) A Moab police incident a week ago led to an officer separated from the same force that’s now being questioned and investigated.

If you read what he said on the police radio, it may have been his weird way of calling it quits.

It could be pivotal here that the cop (Everett Gist) came to the police from the Utah Department of Corrections. He had been a prison guard.

[He was in fact recently fired; see the added comment down below.]

In Utah and maybe other states this is a backdoor way of getting into the police. Applicant testing and training are thus minimal.

Ex-guards are said to often bring a prison guard mentality with them (a YouTube commenter actually says that) and explosive encounters can be their norm. “Guilty until proven innocent.” Their mindset in four words.

Via the link in comment (34) one of the cops at Gabby’s traffic-stop was quoted as saying the pay is lousy, but in the local economy there really isn’t anything that pays better.

In much of the US’s south and mid-west you can see poverty and brain-drain in small towns setting in. Take a look at one rather startling solution here.


Added. The police in Italy are nationally integrated and follow career paths. So they are assured of okay standards, okay pay, and and okay postings, whether to big cities, small towns, or villages.  And of course, they are admired and popular.


Added. A new report has been posted on ex-cop Everett Gist. Hard to believe, but he was terminated as a prison guard just 10 months ago, for offensive Facebook posts.

Philip Stinson, a professor of criminal justice at Bowling Green State University who studies police integrity, said the posts would get an officer fired at law enforcement agencies across the country.

“It’s absolutely important that people have trust in their law enforcement officers,” Stinson said, “the law enforcement agencies that serve their community.”

Stinson said Moab should have known why Gist was terminated from his earlier job. “And they may well have known that information,” Stinson said. “They may have decided even so they were going to give this officer a second chance of employment at this agency.”

So. Are the monkeys running the zoo?

The Moab police investigation that Gabby sparked will provide an answer to that.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/07/21 at 05:00 PM | #

(40) Comment (3) above drawing attention to Reddit was posted when systems insights we can use were flowing free and many experts were still around.

Hopeful’s post (9) above highlighted some useful stuff for us in among the trivia and the “it’s all about me” and the jokes.

But this usefulness has been dropping off fast, nobody reading is learning very much, and media have highlighted some of their dopey stuff.

Too many forums end up as circular firing squads. We rather saw that with the PMF that folded in 2015.

On the Reddit sub that happened yesterday.

Stuck with a genuine problem of how to keep the crowd placid, the moderators (who are unpaid) unveiled some poster awards.

This blew up in their faces as the awards they invented were for how to make the human side more cute and the sub more of an entertainment or a game. None had a systems slant.

So the post unveiling the awards, along with the hundreds of negative comments, were disappeared, and an apology was put up in their place. The core problem remained unresolved.

I tipped off the moderators that there is real usefulness in examining the systems at play, and will report if that catches fire.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/09/21 at 02:58 PM | #

(41) A surprising revelation, if a lone Reddit poster who claims he worked with Brian at the Publix supermarket is legitimate as a source.

First, main media has lately talked of Brian flying back from Salt Lake City to get items OUT of a locker to extend the trip as it was going so well.

Comment (36) had suggested this about Laundrie & Gabbie and getting kicked out of the divorcing parents’ house.

On Reddit one of Laundrie’s coworkers at Publix said he came back to quit his job and to move items OUT of the house. His parents wanted the pair gone to facilitate their divorce, so he and Gabby would move back to New York.

But this does not seem quite what Luca423 says. He has posted elements of this narrative at different times, all of which he says was shared with the FBI. Taken together, they suggest another sequence.

1. The parents plan a divorce at least some months ago, and back then ask Brian and Gabby to move out.

2. They do move out; in May they resign from Publix and Taco Bell, and move back to New York’s Long Island, to stay with Gabby’s step-dad and mom.

3. On 2 July they start the 4-month coast-to-coast trip in the van from there.

4. Next, Brian’s dad wants all of Brian’s and Gabby’s junk out of the house as well.

5. So Brian flies back from Salt Lake City (maybe at his dad’s expense) and moves the junk INTO a locker. He tells Luca423 this is why he came back

6. Gabby is fatally attacked, most likely on 27 August when Brian had been observed so enraged.

7. When he flees Wyoming around 30 August, he heads back to the home from where both he and Gabby and their junk had been booted out.

Point 2 seems weird. Gabby’s father and stepmother (who Gabby adored) live just a few miles east of them. Why not move in with them?

Point 7 also seems weird. Is his rationality on the blink? Where is the locker? Does it even exist? If yes are Gabby’s possessions still inside it?

The FBI surely know. We wait and see.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/09/21 at 11:13 PM | #

(42) We have some relevant information on the town of Jackson in Wyoming and (next comment) on the Merry Piglets restaurant.

Jackson is where on 27 August Brian Laundrie’s restaurant fracas happened, where Gabby might have died, and where her body is still resting.

Jackson’s permanent population is just under 10,000. Jackson Hole (the valley) sees 2 million visitors a year and Yellowstone National Park 80 miles north sees 4 million.

There are not that many towns within easy driving distance to offer hotel space. Hotels tend to be near fully booked at all times and their room prices are above the average - you can get a room in Manhattan for less money. 

The economy relies on tourism including elk-watching in winter, and on ski-resorts, art-galleries and jewelry stores, and an annual festival of classical music concerts. Quite a few big-name celebrities own homes near there.

If Gabby and Brian spent a night or two there in their van+tent or a hotel it would not have come cheap.

Costs might have startled them. Jackson is one of the most expensive places in the United States to live. The median listing home price is $2.3 million.

Prices are so high for the most part because 97 percent of the county land is federally owned (managed by the state of Wyoming) and 50,000 acres are protected under the Jackson Hole Land Trust.

This leaves only about 2 percent of the county land for the township and the few out-of-town houses and businesses. (South Lake Tahoe and several other places are similar making some federal ownership of land contentious.)

Wage and price pressures on the several thousand support staff in the town and their families are inevitably considerable and it is likely that few live in homes they own.

The whole huge area is regarded as pretty safe. The FBI covers the state from Denver. In Jackson there is not very much crime and the crime-rate has been declining.

The Jackson police force has 26 sworn officers, meaning 9 or less would be on duty at any one time. (Moab’s is even smaller.) You can see the police station in Google Earth at these co-ordinates.

43̊28’42.22"N 110̊45’34.70"W

Officer Michelle Weber has been the chief of police since January. She seems to have a fine record that reflects state-of-the-art thinking about police work.

Back in 2016 low police pay relative to high local costs (pay averaged $50,000 with overtime) was causing cops to leave the force.

Since then there have been pay increases including one in 2020 which may have allowed for some catch-up. A New York cop with similar costs would be paid 50% more than that.

Back in mid 2020 there was a demonstration in Jackson to defund the police so as to allow a bigger budget for the town’s social services. So some at least see the size of the force as redundant.

The county coroner post is an elected one. Since 2014 the popular and respected Dr Brent Blue has been the elected coronor. He inspires a lot of confidence in his remarks here and later won by a large margin.

Dr Blue presided over Gabby’s autopsy and for the moment he cares for her body. His coroner office and the county morgue are at these Google Earth locations.

43°28’37.39"N 110̊45’31.88"W
43°28’19.66"N 110°47’1.00"W

In his “day job” Dr Blue is a general practitioner with a practice in Jackson.

He is quite famous in aviation circles. As a pilot he has more than 9,000 hours of flight time and he is one of those experts brought in nationally when fatal aircraft crashes happen.

The central area of Jackson is certainly pretty and walkable. Gabby’s last hours might have been among the trip’s nicest and most memorable.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/10/21 at 12:23 PM | #

(43) 8:00pm East Coast time: it has just been announced from Jackson that the coroner Dr Brent Blue (profiled in the comment above) will hold a press conference via Zoom at 2:30 tomorrow East Coast time to announce his results.

A precise cause of Gabby’s death is very likely and it may be possible to give a precise time. Unless someone else is implicated, charges against Laundrie might soon after take a quantum leap.


Added two hours in advance of the press conference:

It is unlikely that Dr Blue will release ALL of the findings. Typically the FBI will want to keep secret some of them.

Here are some informed guesses on what we might actually get to hear.


Added after the coroner’s press conference broadcast live on some US news channels.

These seem to be the main takeaways now that Dr Brent Blue’s 15-minute press-conference is concluded.

1. Gabby’s death was by strangulation. The evidence for that and all other evidence resulting were not allowed to be given out by the coroner under Wyoming State law.

2. The forensic process took a month because (1) results of some tests always take a while to come back, and (2) there was a wave of consultation with other forensic experts.

3. Gabby’s body is released to the families and may already have been flown to Long Island to conclude the funeral.

4. Dr Blue saying “other cases of domestic violence” might have been a way around Wyoming’s narrow rules. 

And some opinions.

1. This could be the most comprehensive and careful autopsy ever done anywhere, and its seeming rock-solid nature should hold up well in any trial.

2. DNA of Laundrie or another person may or may not play a main role in any trial; the gamechanger could be any DNA found under Gabby’s fingernails.

3. Strangulation is often proved by the breaking of the hyoid bone in the neck. Meredith’s hyoid bone was broken but in her case the cause was a stab with a knife.

4. Strangulation is considered by experts to be the ultimate hate or rage mode because unconsciousness or death takes at least five minutes and eye contact is probably maintained the whole time.

5. This was no accident, and seemingly almost certainly no sex crime.  If ever caught, Laundrie may have an insuperable task in trying to point the finger of blame toward any other.


Added: this 2012 British case is being suggested as one strong parallel - the strangler’s parents were prosecuted for the cover-up and both went to prison.


Added wednesday: Gabby’s families are now headed for Wyoming and will return home at the weekend with her ashes.

This suggests there might be a private final funeral service in the Jackson funeral home, and/or there might be a service on Long Island if Gabby’s ashes are interred, or scattered at sea, legal more than three nautical miles from land.

The FBI won’t charge Laundrie with anything before Gabby’s cremation, knowing that if they did then Laundrie’s lawyer could make legal moves to force a second autopsy.

The very unusual 3-D CAT scan by the coroner’s team has surprised and impressed one or two of the experts. Likely that mobile equipment was brought in as Gabby’s body remained in the mortuary the whole time.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/11/21 at 08:12 PM | #

(44) Our suggested main interest continues to be to spot which systems broke or were not even there to allow this to happen in the first place. We spotted a number relevant to Knox.

This is an update and expansion of the timeline, to replace that in Comment 11, posted here first to draw attention to it.

All suggested events on these dates are feasible, but some may not stand up to FBI scrutiny. Phone triangulations will be key.

This highlights more mysteries (aka systems weaknesses) in addition to the seven in the top post, two of which are resolved.

8. What concern caused Gabby’s dad and step-mom to move to Vero Beach, Florida in May?

9. Why the failure of Moab Police Victim Advocate to interview Gabby after the traffic stop?

10. Why did Petito family find out only ELEVEN DAYS LATER that Brian was back in Florida with Gabby’s van but no Gabby?

01 ??    Gabby & Brian > North Port
05 ??    Gabby father > Florida
05 ??    Gabby & Brian > Long Island
07 02   Leave Long Island on trip
07 05   Monument Rock KS arrive
07 08   Colorado Springs arrive
07 10   Dunes NP arrive
07 16   Zion NP arrive
07 20   Cedar Breaks NP
07 21   Bryce NP arrive
07 26   Mystic Hot Springs
07 29 1 Canyonlands NP Mesa Arch
07 29 2 Arches NP Willow Springs
08 01   Instagram; next one 08 12 ??
08 09   Arches NP photos taken
08 10 1 Gabby texts Laundrie sister
08 10 2 Arches NP Jay Foster talk
08 12 1 Reported incident in Moab
08 12 2 Arches NP entry police stop
08 12 3 Bypass Moab Victim Advocate
08 13   Moab to Salt Lake City ??
08 17   Laundrie flies to Florida
08 19   Gabby Vanlife video upload
08 21   Salt Lake City Ubereats
08 24 1 Hotel checkout, leave SLC
08 24 2 Ogden Monarch Wall photo
08 25 1 Rustic Row Victor Idaho ??
08 25 2 Jackson/Tetons park arrive
08 25 3 Gabby’s last talk w mom
08 25 4 Possible Jenny Lake sighting ??
08 26 1 Gabby’s last instagram
08 26 2 Van, BL seen at Spread Creek
08 27 1 Signal Mountain campground ??
08 27 2 Jackson Merry Piglets
08 27 3 Van, BL seen at Spread Creek
08 27 4 Bethunes videotape van
08 27 5 Gabby dead earliest ??
08 28   Van, BL seen at Spread Creek
08 29 1 Rose Davis awaits Gabby call
08 29 2 Van finally gone by 11:00 am
08 29 3 Laundrie hitchhiking/Baker ??
08 29 4 Laundrie hitchhiking/Jalovec ??
08 30 1 Gabby dead latest ??
08 30 2 Laundrie illegal use credit card
08 31   Laundrie illegal use credit card
09 01   Laundrie back at North Port
09 11 1 Petitos realise BL back alone
09 11 2 Report filed Gabby missing
09 11 3 North Port cops seize van
09 12   Laundrie person of interest
09 17   Laundrie reported missing
09 19   Gabby body found Spread Creek
09 26   Memorial service for Gabby
10 03   Gabby Foundation inauguration

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/14/21 at 10:38 PM | #

(45) Oct. 20, 2021 Yahoo headlines say human remains have been found in the swamp in Florida (is it Carlton Reserve?) near trail frequented by BL. Some items of his were found nearby.

This may be a false alarm or a clever ruse. The area was underwater until recently.

Posted by Hopeful on 10/20/21 at 05:01 PM | #

(46) Likely finding dead of Brian Laundrie: Laundrie’s parents were present at today’s search and it is reported that Laundrie’s father spotted a white waterproof bag and identified the items in it.  The FBI next spotted a backpack, and then a body.

Hmmm. Muchos suspicion on Twitter that the items were planted. Yes indeed Hopeful, a possible attempt at a ruse…

Earlier I wouldn’t have thought that very likely and SOMETHING kept that search going for so long; the swamp is festooned with cameras now. Perhaps he was picked up days ago on one of those? Also had his psychology been in ongoing meltdown?

However, check out this rather shocking report (in the Daily Mail, surprise surprise) about seven bodies uncovered while the search for Laundrie continued. They seem rather prolific.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/20/21 at 07:55 PM | #

(47) Here are the Google Earth coordinates for the entrance to the small Myakkahatchee Creek Environmental Park being shown in media videos thursday morning.

27° 7’13.72"N   82°11’48.58"W

This very small park is adjacent to the extensive Carlton Reserve 100 times larger which was the one most searched in the past month. It was apparently where Brain Laundrie’s car was abandoned.


Added. New reports suggest that possibly only some bones have been found, on the trail visible in this location under water until a few days ago. Cadaver dogs are reported as in there now presumably looking for more remains.

27° 7’41.88"N 82°11’28.87"W

Also, late last night a brief and rather odd video was embedded in a media report by a reporter who followed Laundrie’s parents into the park. There seems to be no law-enforcement around.

At one point, the father spontaneously dashes off the road and into waist-high shrubs to the right, and seems to find the white bag somewhere in there. That did not look so good.


Added: So Laundrie is dead. Around 6:00 pm eastern time FBI Denver confirmed that Laundrie’s dental records match those of the remains found yesterday.


The Denver office will continue to process the case and attention should move back to where it really matters in Utah and Wyoming.  Google Earth coordinates for the FBI are here.

39°46’0.56"N 104°53’45.78"W


Added: It seems to me really odd where BL was found. How hard really was he hiding? He was found right on the one and only trail that heads almost due north after the bridge from the carpark. It is very easy to see on Google Earth (coordinates above). If there are any branch trails they dont show up on Google Earth. The police tape rectangle in helicopter shots is right across the trail, which is clearly much walked. In dry weather in the summer, one could imagine it being quite a busy highway.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/20/21 at 08:51 PM | #

(48) Brian Laundrie is dead, FBI confirms it by dental records. Gabby Petito’s killer is dead. Pure justice: a life for a life.

Very sad nonetheless, for all concerned. R.I.P.

I wish Peace to the Laundrie family who lost a son. Peace to the Petito family who lost a daughter. It is over.

Posted by Hopeful on 10/21/21 at 06:43 PM | #

(49) So, quite an array of systems have just proved themselves not to be so hot.

Better systems would seem the only good outcome not least for the memory of Gabby. See a suggested first masterlist in a second post on this in a day or two.

One more ill-performing system we might add immediately: the methods of the lawyer for the Laundries who is now wildly blowing smoke, seemingly because he knows he messed up big-time.

Laundrie was in line for charging with first degree murder if captured alive. A better lawyer would have seen a possible shot at a “psychotic episode” defense which might have incurred a lesser sentence, especially if Laundrie was wrongly medicated or off his meds.

Okay, the law does not hold this defense in high regard, but American juries are notoriously fickle. And as in 90 percent or so of all such cases now, it might have been plea-bargained. 

Instead, this (property) lawyer created an impossible back-to-the-wall no-win situation for Laundry rather than talking him back down to Planet Earth and keeping him alive.

Also he created a PR nightmare for Laundrie’s parents that will forever haunt them. And he has directly added immeasurably to the heartache of the Petitos.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/22/21 at 09:38 AM | #

Check out main poster Hopeful’s eloquent move to the sidelines just posted here.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/23/21 at 03:34 PM | #
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