Monday, June 08, 2015

Why Desperation Sets In At The Pesky Similarities Between Amanda Knox And Jodi Arias

Posted by Chimera




1. The Incessant Comparisons

Google “Amanda Knox” along with “Jodi Arias” who was recently convicted of killing her ex-boyfriend and you will see what I mean.

Of comparisons between the two, there are many dozens. Some pieces damningly list the similarities, and then in numerous defensive comments the facts about the real Knox get mangled. Some pieces try to argue that there are differences, and in comments the writer’s numerous false claims get nailed.

To bring out quite forcefully the stark similarities, this post looks at the interrogations. At the time of this posting, Arias has been convicted of first degree murder, but sentenced to life without parole, since the jury would not hand down the death penalty.

Meanwhile, Knox has been provisionally found not guilty in a highly suspect Fifth Chambers action which might be overturned by an order of the President, or by a challenge by the Florence court, or by a challenge by another arm of the Supreme Court.

2. Similarities Under Interrogation

Below is all of Arias’s 2008 interrogation after her arrest (posted in 4 parts) with notes on some of the similarities. Knox was only ever interrogated once, on 17 December 2007 (at her own request), in a couple of hours, so I also draw on some of her other statements.

Most of what Jodi Arias says is just babbling and rambling, a trait common to Knox.  But unlike Knox, Arias doesn’t have a media campaign going on to release her, and Arias hasn’t been able to bend or corrupt any courts.

Part 1 (2 hours 40 minutes)

 

Part 2 (2 hours)

 

Part 3 (2 hours)

 

Part 4 (2 hours)

 

Assessment

My view from watching this: Arias is truly emotionally vulnerable here, but even so, her mind is constantly trying to get her out of this.

The problem is that she doesn’t seem to register just how much the contradictions ensnare her.  Arias, like Knox, thinks she can talks her way out of anything.  She seems stunned that her ‘‘little-girl routine’’ doesn’t win over the police.

Arias seems to think during the police questionings, she can simply make it all go away if she keeps denying.  Problem is, her interview is riddled with partial admissions.  Knox seems to think that she can win over the media if she keeps denying ‘‘she killed her friend’‘.

However, when Arias finally does testify, she is cold, sarcastic, and testy.  (Sound familiar?)

I imagine if Amanda Knox ‘‘had’’ been formally questioned without lawyers, it would have looked something like this.  Yes, it is segmented, but it would be mindnumbing to do a complete transcript.  However, there were many gems from this questioning.  It is chilling to watch, but if you can, do it, and ask yourself if that isn’t another ‘‘Knox’’ performing there.

Note these telling exchanges, all from Part 1

(5:46) Det. Flores: I travelled all the way up here to talk to you.  Because, I’ve been working on Travis’ case ever since it happened.  And I know exactly what happened, how he was killed.  I know a lot of details.  And just recently we found quite a bit of evidence, and I’ll discuss that with you.  The main thing that I’m looking for though is answers, on why certain things happened, and also to get your statement.

(6:25) Arias: Okay.

(6:35) Det Flores: A lot of details in this case haven’t been released to the public or even to Travis’ family yet.  And those details are known only to us, and to the person who did it.  And that’s why we’re here. I believe you know some of those details, and you can help us.

(6:51) Arias: I would love to help you in any way that I can

One of the most laughable statements ever made in the case.  8 hours later, she still won’t give them a straight answer.

(8:45) Arias: Should we record this?  (reaching for the remote).

Seriously?  Arias has been arrested for murder, and her first act is pretend to be ‘‘helping the police’‘.  A bit like Knox, who insisted she was helping the police, even after being charged with Meredith’s murder

(10:35) Arias: I know that people have been posting a lot of really nice things on Facebook, you know, memories, and I thought maybe I should do that.  And I realized looking back in it is sounded immature, more like a ‘‘Dear Travis’’ kind of letter, so I took it down…

(10:53) Det Flores: Personal?

(10:55) Arias: Yeah, some of it was personal, not too personal, nothing inappropriate.

At least least Arias isn’t emailing people questions about whether Travis likes anal, or what he uses vasoline for.  Give her some credit.

(12:00) Arias: I didn’t realize until I was speaking with Ryan Burns, the guy that’s in Utah.  We’ve been talking, we try not to talk about that, because it’s kinda like ... ugh (makes disgusted face).  And plus Travis is my ex-boyfriend, so, when you’re mourning your friend, how do you talk to to your new potential mating person?  .... So, it’s kind of a grey area.

Yes, Jodi thinks dead bodies are ‘‘yucky’‘, and that mourning an ex, while talking to a new potential partner is a ‘‘grey area’‘.  Did she go run off to buy any lingerie?

(12:15) Arias: I try not to talk about it too much, but he [Travis] comes up a lot

Your ex-boyfriend was stabbed 29 times and shot in the head.  Annoying, how often ‘‘he’’ comes up.

(12:20) Arias: And it was though him [Ryan] that he thought things were really weird, and some think that you had a hand in it.

Maybe because you find the topic of your ex so annoying when you try to spend time with new boyfriend….

(12:28) Det. Flores: I’ve talked to a lot of people.  And everyone is pointing the finger at you.

(12:35) Arias: I know.

(12:36) Det Flores: Everyone is saying - I don’t understand what happened to Travis.  I don’t know who killed him, but you need to look at Jodi.  And sometimes the simplest answers are the correct ones.

Something Knox found out (and soon Arias soon will), is that when you have suspicions about someone, you bring them up immediately.  You don’t wait until you become a supect yourself.

(13:30) Det. Flores: I know that you still had a relationship of convenience, even though you were not boyfriend/girlfriend anymore, that you two were still having sexual relations with ...

(13:45) Arias: Does his family know?  Just curious.

(13:50) Det. Flores: No, his family doesn’t know anything.

(13:54) Arias: I’m interested in protecting how he is remembered as well.

Another laughable claim.  Jodi would later accuse him of everything from being abusive and controlling to pedophilia.  Knox uses Meredith’s memory to cash in on a blood money book ‘‘Waiting to be Heard’‘, does dozens of interviews claiming to be a victim, and uses her website to raise money for her legal fees to get off on Meredith’s murder.

(16:10) Arias: Too much of my nightlife was about him [Travis].  He would text ‘‘hey I’m getting sleepy….. zzzz’‘.  That was his code for ‘‘coast is clear, come on over’‘.  (long, unrelated rambling).

Less than 3 minutes after saying she wants to protect how Travis is remembered, Jodi is already implying Travis is horny, and leaking unnecessary details.  An attempt to smear him?  Who else does that?

(19:20) Arias: I used to always joke, ‘‘that, regardless of what the Bible says, and yes I’m Christian, I just live my life by the 10 commandments, and that those are my rules,

‘’ .... so I always used to joke about that.

Your ‘‘friend’’ has been savagely stabbed to death, and after being arrested you are making jokes about fornication.  Who else would make such jokes after the loss of a close one?

For the next 15 minutes Arias babbles on about unrelated things.  Det. Flores has incredible patience, as most would have slit their wrists listening to her.  But finally he tries to pull Jodi back to the topic at hand. 

He makes several attempts, but Arias keeps trying to divert the topic away from Travis and his death.  After about 1/2 hour of Jodi talking nonsense, Detective Flores tries to get Jodi to give a timeline and direction of her travels.

(52:20) Det. Flores: So, you took this trip and you left on Monday the 2nd until Thursday?

(52:44) Arias: I think so.

(52:50) Det. Flores: So, we have here about 48 hours…. this trip would take you a little over 48 hours….  I have a problem with this trip.

(53:06) Arias:  Well I first went to ....

(53:30) Det. Flores: I’ve gone over this trip over and over in my mind.  There’s still 20-some odd hours, even if you pull over to sleep, a couple of times ....

(53:42) Arias:  Did I tell you I got stranded?

(53:46) Det. Flores: Yeah, you mentioned that.  If you slept for 10 hours, here and here (pointing on map), it would still leave 18 some odd hours, for something else.  This is the trip that people are focusing on.  People are saying that she left .... Travis was killed on Wednesday.

(54:22) Arias: I did not go near his house.

(54:27) Det Flores: I pulled your cell records.  Your cell phone was turned off, between here and here (indicates on map).  What does that show me?

(54:45) Arias: No, no, no.

(54:50) Det. Flores: Is there plenty of time for you to do this?  Yes.  And do I believe that you had come to visit Travis?  Yes.  Did you have the opportunity?  Yes, there were no other witnesses.

(55:10) Arias: Well, I didn’t turn it off physically, but it died.

(55:16) Det. Flores: And you magically found your charger here?  (pointing on map)

(55:20) Arias: It was under the passenger side of the front seat.

(55:23) Det. Flores: When you were lost, you couldn’t have pulled over and found it?

(55:41) Det. Flores: I’ve been focusing on why your phone turns off here, outside of Los Angeles ... because the [Highway] 15 goes through Las Vegas.  It never goes through Arizona.

Detective Flores zeroed in on a huge gap Arias’ timeline.  Why did a 48 hour trip take more than 3 days?  He also noted that her cell phone was not active for most of that trip.

In Peugia, the police had noted a discrepancy in Sollecito’s timeline.  He claimed to have reported the burglarly then waited outside for the police.  In fact phone records showed the Postal Police showed up about 15-20 minutes before he made the call.  It was later discovered that Knox and Sollecito had turned off their cell phones (something they never did), during the time of the murder.

(58:25) Det. Flores: Were you at Travis’ house on Wednesday?

(58:28) Arias: Absolutely not.  I was nowhere near Mesa.

She is very sure then, but with some more questioning, she will not only be there, but a witness to the actual murder.

(58:40) Det. Flores: What if I could show you proof you were?  Would that change your mind?

(58:45) Arias: I was not there.  (trying to look convincing)

(58:59) Det. Flores: You were at Travis’ house.  You had a sexual encounter.  Which, there’s pictures.  And I know you know there’s pictures, because I have them.  I will show them to you.  So, I am asking you to be honest with me.  I know you were there.

(59:30) Arias: Are you sure that those pictures aren’t from another time?

(59:35) Det. Flores: Absolutely positive.

(59:40) Arias: The last time I had any sexual contact with Travis was in May.

(59:55) Det Flores: You know how I told you about the camera? The camera was damaged.  Someone put it in the washing machine, ran it through a wash cycle, with some clothes of Travis’, but the card is intact.  You know how I told you the card was destroyed?  I didn’t want to tell you the truth, because I wanted to make sure the photos were accurate.  We can pull deleted photos, even from 6 months ago.  And I have pictures of you and Travis.

(1:01:00) Arias: Are you sure it was me?  Because I was not there.

(1:01:00) Det. Flores: Jodi, it’s you.

Arias is trying to look and sound convincing, but her denials come out weaker and weaker.  But the stunned look shows through.

(1:01:55) Arias: I didn’t hurt Travis.  He’s done so much for me.

But like your Seattle ‘‘colleague’’ you will soon trash the memory of the person you called a friend.

(1:02:00) Arias: I lived there.  I lived there for months and months.

Pretty much the excuse Knox used to explain her DNA being everywhere.

(1:02:15) Det. Flores: I know you took pictures in the shower just before he died.

(1:02:29) Arias: I don’t think he would allow that

Either you did, or you didn’t.

(1:05:30) Det. Flores: our record indicate you reported a gun stolen, a .25 auto, which just happens to be the same caliber used to kill Travis.

(1:06:10) Arias: A .25 auto was used to kill Travis?

Using a ‘‘drop piece’‘, reported stolen, brought to the murder scene.  Knox brought one of Raffaele’s knives.

(1:06:18) Det. Flores: Do you want to see pictures of him?

(1:06:25) Arias: Part of me does, part of me doesn’t.

(1:06:30) Det. Flores: Why, because you don’t want to remember?

(1:06:35) Arias: No, there’s a morbid curiosity.

Arias is curious to see photos of Travis.  In fact, she asks several times to see photos of him (after the fact).  The detectives wonder if it is to help her come up with a story, but it is possible she just wanted to see her handiwork

Knox had also made several public demands to visit Meredith’s grave.  Creepy as hell.

(1:06:50) Det. Flores: I can’t deny this evidence.  The trip you took doesn’t make any sense, the opportunity was there, the pictures on that date with him, your blood is in the house - mixed with his, not alongside, but mixed, your hair is there is blood, and your palm print is there, in blood.  Your image is not important, saving the rest of your life is.

(1:07:30) Arias: Listen, if I’m found guilty, I won’t have a life.  I’m not guilty.

To compare Det. Flores’ listings: Knox’s account of the night/morning made no sense; she had access and opportunity; she had 5 spots of mixed DNA with Meredith, and oddly, NO fingerprints were found in Knox’s own home.

Jodi’s denial is extremely weak, just like many of the ‘‘no evidence’’ denials that Knox makes.

(1:08:20) Arias: I’m not a murderer, but if I were to do something like that I’d wear gloves, or something.

Wow…. way to be convincing.

(1:09:35) Arias: Let’s say for a second that I did.  Suppose I say I did.  Why

(1:09:50) Det. Flores: The motive is there.  Anger, jealousy ....

Knox frequently argued along the lines of ‘‘there is no motive for me to do this’‘.

(1:29:30) Arias: If I was ever going to try to kill someone, I would use gloves.  I’ve got plenty of them.

This is the second time Jodi mentions this.  Like Amanda, she knows a little something about C.S.I.

(1:29:55) Det. Flores: Would they see your car, or did you park it down the street?

(1:30:05) Arias: No, they would see it, I drove an Infinite.

(1:31:42) Det. Flores: You know that all rental cars have GPS on them?  For us to use….

Oh, s**t.

(1:42:15) Arias: Is it possible that my memory card was in his camera, and they are interchangeable?

(1:43:30) Det Flores: You’re saying that someone took your pictures and your memory card and was framing you?

Knox has written before that she thinks Raffaele planted her fingerprints on the knife used to kill Meredith.  Everything is a conspiracy.

(2:01:00) Arias: I’m trying to put his death behind me.

So…. you just want to get on with your life?

3. Numerous Other Similarities

  • Arias had cuts on her fingers which she said was from ‘‘dropping glass’‘.  She claimed that happens regularly.  Police believed it was from the knife slipping in her hand.
  • Knox had a cut on her neck which she said was from a ‘‘hickey’‘.

  • Arias claimed her phone died while on the road and that she found her charger later
  • Knox claimed she turned her phone off so she would not receive a text in case Patrick wanted her to come in afterall.  She previously claimed that it was to preserve the charge for her Gubbio trip

  • Arias was asked if anyone else was present at the scene.  She invented a story about 2 masked intruders.
  • Knox was told Sollecito removed her alibi.  She invented a story about Lumumba doing the crime.

  • Arias has given prison interviews and basked in the limelight
  • Knox has given interviews since being released from prison and basked in the limelight.

  • Arias refused her own suggestion for a lie detector test since if it wouldn’t help her in court,
  • Knox says she will take a lie detector test, but never has.

  • Arias attempted to destroy evidence, including attempting to destroy a camera in the washing machine.
  • Knox attempted to selectively clean the crime scene, and pin it all on Rudy Guede

  • Arias had the foresight to clean her feet before, going to the washing machine to throw the camera in.
  • Knox (or Sollecito), had the foresight to clean his/her feet before going into Amanda’s room to grab the lamp.

  • Arias had the foresight to clean her hands before grabbing Clorex to put in the washing machine
  • Knox had the foresight to leave Meredith’s lamp, but use her own and wipe it for prints

  • Arias put her licence back on upside down (it was removed while at Travis’ house).
  • Knox put the bathmat (with Sollecito’s footprint), back upside down

  • Arias staged a prior break-in so she could report a gun stolen, which she would later use.
  • Knox staged a prior break in and later used some techniques on Meredith.

  • Arias planned it by using a ‘‘trip to Utah’’ as a way of explaining her time away.
  • Knox planned it by waiting for a time when no one else was home.

  • Arias tried to wash Travis’ body to destroy evidence.attempted to destroy evidence.
  • Knox (and Sollecito), stripped Meredith down to make it look like a rape.

  • Arias called Travis’ phone and left voicemails to make it look like she didn’t know he was dead.
  • Knox called Meredith’s phone to make it look like she was trying to reach her.

  • Arias had sex with Travis prior to killing him
  • Knox had sex with a drug dealer (Federico Martini), before and after killing Meredith.

  • Arias caused Travis to think she was dangerous and a stalker, leading to police suspicion after.
  • Knox caused Meredith and others to think she was pushy and weird, leading to police suspicion after
  • .
  • Arias rented a car, bought cans of gas (to avoid stopping at gas stations), reported her gun stolen (so suspicion wouldn’t be aroused), and turned off her phone.
  • Knox brought a knife from Raffaele’s flat, brought 2 ‘‘frame-able’’ accomplices, chose a night no one was home, and turned off her phone.

  • Arias attempted to rain hostility down on prosecutor Juan Martinez.
  • Knox attempted to rain hostility down on prosecutor Guiliano Mignini.

  • Arias flirted with the police who arrested her.
  • Knox flirted with court officers.

  • Arias went to her current boyfriend as if nothing happened.
  • Knox went back to her life, including missing Meredith’s memorial.

  • Arias murdered her ex-boyfriend.
  • Knox murdered her roommate.

  • Arias called Travis repeatedly just to hear his voicemail.  Stalker?
  • Knox texted Meredith repeatedly the day before.  Stalker?

  • Arias was born July 9, 1980.
  • Knox was born July 9, 1987.



Comments

Thanks, Chimera.

I agree with you if you’re implying Knox premeditated the murder.

Posted by JohnQ on 06/08/15 at 11:44 PM | #

Chimera- Thanks for your detailed exposition.

Haven’t played it all back yet, but do have a Q.

You wrote:

“Arias put her licence back on upside down (it was removed while at Travis’ house).
Knox put the bathmat (with Sollecito’s footprint), back upside down”

Upside-down &/or Back-to-front?

Posted by Cardiol MD on 06/09/15 at 01:01 AM | #

I’ve watched all of it.  Just a comment. Arias is hideous, the way she laughs and flirts throughout the whole thing as if the slaughter of Travis Alexander was some kind of joke.  She got life without parole, which is my preferred sentence for people who commit the type of crime committed by Arias, Knox, Sollecito, and Guede. At least her case is sorted.

Posted by JohnQ on 06/09/15 at 01:24 AM | #

Thank you Chimera. This is an excellent analysis and very accurate comparison of these two murderers.

Posted by Johnny Yen on 06/09/15 at 08:46 AM | #

Cardiol,

Guess I should clarify.  Arias took her front licence plate off altogether.  The back was removed while at Travis’ house, but put on upside down.  The thought is that driving without a plate would get her noticed and stopped quicker, while an upside down plate would avoid traffic-cameras, interstate cameras.

Knox (if my memory is correct) moved the bathmat with the footprint.  But when it was put back, Solly’s foot was at the other end, pointing away from the sink instead of towards.  You don’t use a bathroom sink with your back to it.

JohnQ - Yes, I do believe it was premeditated, at least on Knox’s part.  As in the case of Arias, most, if not all, of the questions can be easily answered by looking through the lens of forethought.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/adding_a_dozen_more_questions_to_the_several_hundred_amanda_knox/#comments

JohnQ - You are right, Arias is hideous to watch.  She flirts with Detective Flores (a man), but is much more subdued by Detective Blaney (a woman).

This questioning is much more drawn out than what Knox faced.  However, when confronted with hard proof she was at Travis’ house, she invented the ‘‘2 masked burglars’’ story.  Knox, when confronted with Sollecito pulling her alibi, invented the ‘‘Lumumba did it’’ line.

I think this is what caused Knox’s ‘‘public downfall’’ in the Spring of 2013.  Marriott let the real Knox be shown.  She should have stayed away from the public eye.

Posted by Chimera on 06/09/15 at 10:28 AM | #

Hi Chimera. An insightful post which goes beyond other comparisons I’ve just seen. Hard to argue down.

Maybe another commonality: Neither Knox nor Arias had much of an ability to hang onto friends.

Of those who really knew Knox back in Seattle, few spoke up for her after her arrest, and even Madison Paxton seems gone. Arias much the same.

I agree now with JohnQ, she is a dangerous case, not least because she can be compelling in her softpoken voice and direct gaze. Even now killer-groupies idolize her.

But I did think at my first superficial glance at the case early in the trial that she had been abused and used and this was a sudden fit of rage at Travis Alexander using her for sex while publicly being an item with a chaste Mormon girl.

Then three things in particular changed my mind: the elaborate organization for the attack; the extreme cruel overkill, which could have left Travis Alexander dead 10X over and nearly left him without his head; and the gameplaying on the stand.

Italians sure know and dislike Knox since they watched her in disbelief on the stand and before. They also know that Meredith died after a long barbaric attack by three (this had zero aspects of a burglar attack or rapist attack, it also was pure rage) and Knox & RS showed signs of joy right up to their arrests.

Italians mostly dont know of Arias but if they did they’d see little difference between the two.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 06/09/15 at 10:28 AM | #

Chimera, this is a masterful comparison of two young women who were coping fairly well on the surface and who had plenty of intelligence but who were destroyed on the inside.  The disappointments of life threw them over the edge when they faced people they couldn’t control, people who criticized them, people they also had to envy.  Both were control freaks and very brittle.

All their inner pain had turned to seething repressed anger and they didn’t realize it at all until their explosive response to rejection by someone they lived with in the first stages of adulthood. That person finally brought their primitive rage to the surface. Travis and Meredith.

I’d never read Tolstoy’s “Kreutzer Sonata” until last month and he draws an incredibly vivid picture of the unseen battle in the minds of two people who are forced into relationship (a married couple) but who are absolutely seething against each other. It ends with the jealous husband killing a suspected rival. “Fear hath torment.”

Knox and Arias were both devastated and maddened when their manipulations with others which had worked for a long time failed them.

At the same time Knox was also beginning a love affair with knives and power, the power of freedom and far from homeness, the false sense of having plenty of money and all the drugs and men she could want. It went to her head.

She’d begun working the night shift in a bar and her frequent walk home in dark streets when the seedy are out drunk may have decided her on the need for knife protection.

Also Raffaele may have shown her a few kickbox moves from his days of martial arts and pretended he was ever ready to fight. But she wanted to show him how tough she was, the Clint Eastwood American. She was always competing with guys in rockclimbing and outdoor sports back in Seattle. Knox is competitive and keeps score. She wants to impress a guy by how capable she is in the area that will wow him. She falsely assumes what that area is.

The above videos of Arias in the interview room are revealing. She did have a lot going for her before her crime. And Travis used her badly, they were both weak in one area common to that young age, sex, and yet both were striving desperately to rise above and to walk a spiritual path while no doubt blaming each other for their failures. Pride got the better of them both. Travis didn’t want the trashy Arias for a wife, and she resented that he had taken advantage of her trashiness for his own pleasure only to discard her.

ny woman would be angry, but few would drive out of state with gas cans in the car and a stolen gun to slash the man to death. Talk about premeditation, long after a cooldown period. She could have just slaughtered him on Facebook and social media and spread rumors among his friends, slashed his tires and ruined his paint, stolen his stuff or cut up his clothes. Egged his house. There were levels of retribution far short of murder, not that I’m condoning any of this vengeance (lead us not into temptation) but it’s better than murder.

I’d never seen the blonde police woman interrogating Arias. She seems to start off building a bond with Arias in a smooth and truthful way by empathizing as a female with the pain of relationships that break women’s hearts, but then right as she has Arias wanting to talk and to respond, she talks too much and presses too fast for the thing she is really after, a confession of murder.

t that moment Arias instinctively realizes she has been tricked and has not been given real sympathy for her own pain. Arias shuts down immediately trying to not reveal it. She desperately did want someone to talk to and to spill all the unspoken hurts and confusion, but the price tag for this counseling session would be too great.

The police woman blew it in my opinion, but no doubt she did lay some good groundwork to start Arias thinking about how she wanted to be portrayed in the media since the evidence of her guilt was clear.

Sometimes the main thing when talking to someone in an intense situation is to say very little and let time work its magic. The patience of Job, just lay out a general statement and let it hang there.

If there’s something inside the other person that needs to be expressed, the quiet listening and act of physical patience is the best key to open the door, not more chatting and overriding their chance to speak. I don’t have this gift of extreme patience and finesse but I can see it in others.

The license plate that was put on in reverse shows just how quickly degraded the intellect becomes after an emotional flooding due to a heinous act like murder. That’s why Knox couldn’t see that the blue rug had an almost full footprint left in blood.

The parallels between Arias and Knox are real, right down to the phones turned off, the flirting with police, the gymnastics they both performed in police stations like wild mules that had to kick when they felt cornered. Knox hitting herself in the head was another body motion that showed guilt.

These two females were aggressive. Jodi had much better manners of the two and was at least somewhat seeking for spiritual things unlike Knox who was running from her mom’s Catholicism in yet another rebellion.

The stalker thing with Jodi is hinted at in Knox’s shadowing of David Johnsrud with her airfare bought to China while she was dating Raffaele! Johnsrud should send Raffaele a thank you gift for saving him from Knox.

You have really drawn an incredible list of parallels, Chimera, excellent work.

Both these women had just enough intelligence to get them too far afield and into trouble.

It would be truly interesting to see a bunch of videos of guilty murderers being interrogated by police, killers doing their jive act of innocence lying and making up balderdash, compared side by side with the clear evidence of their guilt.

It would almost be comedic except for the horrible sadness of what they had done. Nothing is more ridiculous than an exposed liar or more huffy and indignant, the real sociopath ones. I know I often mention him but Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald the Green Beret killer is still denying his obvious crime!

There was absolutely no excuse for Knox to get into an altercation with Meredith. She had somewhere else to go, a lovely apartment five minutes away, a supportive rich boyfriend. She could have flounced out after even an extreme argument with Meredith and gone off in a pissy fit back over to Raffaele’s apartment. It’s not like Knox was forced into close quarters with someone who troubled her and had no means to escape. She had an escape route and preferred not to use it.

Posted by Hopeful on 06/09/15 at 11:18 AM | #

Hi Hopeful

Yes you are probably right, at least in a sane world, but Knox is not sane. She is a sociopath whereby all the hate and anger and frustration that had ruled her entire life, plus the correct belief that she was no good and would never amount to anything, boiled over against Meredith who without even trying was a far superior human being than Knox could ever hope to be.
Meredith had a warm loving family relationship.

Meredith’s mother was not a “Free Spirit” like Knox’s mother who was, at least in Knox eyes, a person of loose morals. Knox persona is born out by her slut behavior up until that point and her desire to destroy the fact that her father had abandoned her at an early age.

Knox is insane and like all sociopaths is very clever at hiding it. Just like Jody Arias she has had a lifetime of letting people see only what they want to. for the good of society Knox should be put away where she can do no more damage.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 06/09/15 at 02:56 PM | #

The Woman’s World Soccer Tournament, which is all over the news, caught my eye. There is the reported ongoing controversy of the US goal tender Hope Solo who has been suspended once more. She has been in constant trouble with the law what with one thing or the other including being angry at just about everyone from her coaches to some reporters who she sees as being against her. Then there is the domestic dispute with her family when she became violent. If you check on her background there is a striking similarity between her and Knox. Solo was conceived during a conjugal visit to the jail when her father was serving time. He promptly disowned her just like Curt Knox, well known slime ball, disowned AK. If you look there are all kinds of similarities of aggression with others apart from Jody Arias etc; Casey Anthony liked having a good time and didn’t see her daughter for months on end but was only interested in having sex parties just like Knox. There seems to be a widespread sickness in the US population which is becoming more wide spread hence the riots, because the black community is sick of obvious racist police brutality where a 12 year old can be murdered because he had a toy gun. In reality there are two USA’s one white the other black. Apartheid is alive and well in some parts of the USA, just ask the racist Knox brigade.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 06/09/15 at 10:06 PM | #

Chimera, this is an excellent and detailed comparison of the Arias/Knox mind-set.

Thank you for all your hard work in preparing it.

It really shows how perverse the Italian Supreme Court Knox and Sollecito acquittals really are, given that Arias had been soundly convicted in a US court.

Posted by Mealer on 06/10/15 at 09:38 AM | #

Hey guys. 

Glad you liked it.  One more comparison just occurred. 

Knox originally got 25 years for murder (and related offences), and 1 year for calunnia.  She appealed, and:
(a) In 2011 Hellmann - despite throwing out the murder charge - increased calunnia to 3 years.
(b) The calunnia portion was upheld by Cassation in 2013 - with aggravating circumstances attached.  Basically, she framed PL to divert attention.
(c) Knox appealed in Florence, and Judge Nencini increased the murder offences by 6 months. 
In other words, appealing leaves her worse off.

Arias was sentenced to life without parole, after an 11-1 vote in favour of the death penalty, (it needs to be 12-0).  She now supposedly intends to appeal.  If by some miracle she gets a new trial, Arias would again be eligible for the death penalty.

So ... be careful what you wish for?!

Part 1: 2:28:40, note the headstands.  Knox did the splits.

There was a case years ago in Toronto, of a 15 year girl, Melissa Todorvic who pressured her 17 year old (almost 18) boyfriend David Bagshaw, to murder a ‘‘rival’‘, Stephanie Rengel.  Stephanie was 14, stabbed repeatedly, and left to die in a snowbank.  Todorvic made threats that unless this girl (whom she never met), was killed, Bagshaw wouldn’t get any sex from her.  Hmm…. a jealous, unstable young woman pressures a male who is love with her to senselessly take out another woman.  Afterwards, he claimed his ‘‘prize’‘, after Todorovic ‘‘confirmed’’ that the deed was done.  In court, her legal defence was that she never intended Bagshaw to go ahead with it.  A really disturbing case.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2014/02/27/court_of_appeal_denied_melissa_todorovic_new_trial_for_stephanie_rengel_murder.html

Posted by Chimera on 06/10/15 at 11:00 AM | #

So… Examine the prospect. Edda Knox hooks up with Chris Mellas and who is in the way of this relationship? Well for sure Amanda was since she was making life difficult by trying to influence her father, having wild parties. (Shades of Casey Anthony) She tried to get her father and her mother back together which nobody wanted. So what to do? Simple, give her what she wants. Pack her off to Italy under any pretext at all but get her out of the way. Therefore although AK wanted to go away on a holiday/minimal collage course then by any means make it happen. Therefore Knox was abandoned once more which piled up more hate and frustration in her immature life which manifested in her slutty behavior by trying to have sex with anything in pants. Remember her actions in the house when she tried to bed some of the girls boyfriends who soundly rejected her once more. The other thing is that AK does not like Chris Mellas one little bit. He has remained invisible since day one. This is born out by multiple photographs since he is nowhere to be seen. Also I am reminded of the photo in the court of Edda confronting AK. That to me speaks volumes. Edda knows her daughter is guilty but like many people there is a great deal of denial going on.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 06/10/15 at 11:40 AM | #

Thanks Chimera,
I notice that Arias said “I’m not guilty”; not a more emphatic “I didn’t have anything to do with it”.
Knox does the same thing: “I’m not there and that proves my innocence”. etc.
Sollecito also once said in a news conference “I’m not mad”. - An irrelevant thing to say.
You don’t have to be mad to commit murder.

Posted by DavidB on 06/10/15 at 02:37 PM | #

Re the breaking news - next hearing for Amanda Knox set on 3rd Sept 2015:

Amanda Knox re Meredith: per Amanda iniziato processo calunnia a Firenze - Toscana -

http://www.ansa.it/toscana/notizie/2015/06/10/meredith-per-amanda-iniziato-processo-calunnia-a-firenze_8a3a9e89-29d2-4db0-9390-5e7e42171993.html

Posted by Johnny Yen on 06/10/15 at 02:55 PM | #

Thank you Johnny,

This was posted as well:

http://www.timesunion.com/news/crime/article/American-Amanda-Knox-faces-trial-in-Italy-for-6319057.php
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/amanda-knox-faces-trial-in-italy-for-slander-1.2415946

“MILAN—American Amanda Knox, who was exonerated by Italy’s highest court of her roommate’s brutal murder after multiple trials, is facing a new trial in Italy on a charge of slandering police.

Knox is charged with slander for testifying that her false accusation that a Congolese bar owner murdered her roommate was coerced. The false accusation led to Knox’s conviction of slander of the Congolese man in the main murder trial, the only charge that stuck.

The police slander trial opened Tuesday. Knox is not expected to attend, but prosecution witnesses will be heard in September when the trial resumes.

Knox’ defence lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova said Wednesday he is “not worried” about the case, noting that the statute of limitations runs out in October 2016, requiring exhaustion of all appeals.”

Posted by Chimera on 06/10/15 at 03:39 PM | #

In brief Dalla Vedova does not tell the whole story. He is deliberately misleading. The calunnia trial could easily be over this year. There are three court dates in short succession.

There is the Oggi trial. And the statute of limitations clock has not even started rolling on Knox’s book and her numerous statements on TV and elsewhere.

And he IS worried. Very worried about the above, very worried that the Fifth Chambers cant make its decision stick. See the next several posts for more (and there is even more in the pipeline).

Posted by Peter Quennell on 06/10/15 at 06:25 PM | #

Hi Hopeful

I was reading again your excellent riff on what Chimera had said.

Your comment is about, at the micro level, personal and support systems working or not working. There is a lot to be learned with your tools, not least by the interrogator who spooked Arias into going cold.

Lemme try to position where I think you are at, w/apologies if I get it wrong!.

I briefly made the point in the previous thread (about large systems failure and upgrade) that purposeful man-made systems are like Russian dolls, a hierarchy, and to set anything right the micro level is the place to start.

The Russian-doll hierarchy that I and some others use with great success from small to big is (1) single small systems, like planning or budgeting or fixing a car; computers are full of them; (2) organizations, a bunch of systems; (3) industries and other sectors) like education and health, bigger bunches of systems; (4) multi-sectors like environmental management; (5) national; (6) regional (like Europe); and (7) global. 

Given examples, people can start using this to “see” and forever watch systems in a few hours, and it will hopefully affect them for life - and bump their incomes up a lot (ask Bill Gates).

A full set of tools for successful improvement at any level includes (1) an ability to “see” value as it migrates, there are amazing new tools for that, invented here in New York that show where high value really is (hint: there aint much, and people are fickle these days) ; (2) the system hierarchy (see above) and (3) process management for systems improvement or replacement - at which by the way women do much better than men; in fact the 3rd highest paying occupation for women after showbiz and medical is process management of groups, which involves implementing a number of steps.

Psycho-sociological insights and tools are brought into action in two ways: (1) at the single-system level, which then get built into training and the system levels higher up; and (2) in the process management, which among other things is about pointing a lot of compass needles the same way. Everything is best done in groups and everything in popular culture now about single renegades and superheros who fight the wicked mob is very rare in the true world; joining together is the real need.

Your compassion comes from seeing shortfalls in this driving so many bad things at the personal and family-support and society-support levels. Mine (such as it is!) comes from seeing so freaking many systems in place that let people down or slip through the cracks - that simply dont work. In todays NY Times here are two new ones we should like:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/12/health/college-rape-prevention-program-proves-a-rare-success.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/11/world/asia/china-envisions-network-of-national-parks-with-us-as-a-model.html?_r=0

Posted by Peter Quennell on 06/11/15 at 06:50 AM | #

I have been viewing sections of the Arias interview videos, particularly the first one, and it struck me that Arias’ behaviour is very strange, particularly when on her own, before the interrogation starts,

There are instances of laying her head on the table, picking at her hair and feet, singing and humming at random occasions, weirdly laughing out for no apparent reason and as Chimera has pointed out, a “handstand” out of the blue.

While any of these behaviours could likely be deemed “quirks” in a normal person, they seem profoundly inappropriate and unsettling in a person under caution and police interview, as a brutal murder suspect.

Given the final conviction, these behaviours now seem even more cold, calculating and deliberately distancing the mind from the murder. I do not think ANY innocent person would EVER behave like this, in similar circumstances.

Of course, Knox has behaved in a similar fashion, particularly at the police station, awaiting for her interview, including the infamous “cartwheel”.

Both Meredith’s housemates and her friends repeatedly testified to Knox’s very strange, cold and almost dissociated behaviour and comments, particularly in the immediate aftermath of the brutal murder of her so-called “friend”.

These two psychopaths, therefore, seem to have chillingly similar responses to the charges in their respective murders - so much so that it appears, to me, that their brains are defectively “wired”, to an extent that any normal person cannot begin to understand.

“Seeking Understanding” - I would welcome your comments.

Posted by Mealer on 06/11/15 at 07:06 AM | #

Hi Grahame

All of your insights are great, worth a close read, though you do rather step on your own wisdom with labels at the top like “insane” and “sociopath”! I thought you had sworn off that. grin

Posted by Peter Quennell on 06/11/15 at 07:15 AM | #

I guess here is where the paths sharply veer apart.

Knox, being in Italy, gets 2 automatic appeals: 1 at the intermediate level, and 1 before Cassation (essentially a procedural review).  It is easy to bounce around from level to level, especially if people are bending courts for you.

Arias, who has supposedly filed an appeal (not sure if the conviction and/or the no parole factor), has to convince a Judge(s) reviewing the case that her appeal has any merit.  If it is not convincing, the full appeal won’t even be heard.  This is the ‘‘Common-Law’’ approach.

Knox was convicted in December 2009, just 2 years after the November 2007 arrest.  She has been appealing for the last 5 1/2 years.  Arias was convicted in May 2013, nearly 5 years after the June 2008 murder.  However, it took another 2 years to finally impose a ‘‘life without parole’’ sentence.  Italy prosecuted it’s ‘‘monster’’ much more efficiently, but those quick to judge.

Posted by Chimera on 06/11/15 at 10:54 AM | #

Hi Peter…... Well. After all the psychological interpretations by psychologists on this web site and others, it is has been pretty well established that Amanda Knox is all of those things.

There are just too many instances where the proof of this is in not only her own view of herself as being the center of the universe, but the fact that, just like Jody Arias, she only thinks that others are there in order to worship the ground she walks on.

One true instance of the sociopath is the total lack of any guilt whatsoever and the desire to manipulate and blame anyone other than themselves hence Patrick Lamumba. Hence everybody but herself the queen of the universe.

I think she will kill again and thereby she should be locked away in a prison for the criminally insane.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 06/11/15 at 11:58 AM | #

Hello Mealer

Yes, you are quite right with your intuition about these behaviours. They are more than just two females trying to contrive to appear innocent.

I believe the behaviours are indeed symptomatic of a more serious dissociative state - where the main psychological motivation is to, - at all costs-  deny the Shadow, and identify with their ‘light’, ‘good’, ‘angelic’ (and therefore innocent) side. The position is :

“It is inconceivable that I could have done such a thing, as I am a good person, only capable of caring and love “(etc). And the image, of *Amanda (or Jodi) the Innocent*, must be preserved, for themselves, otherwise their own stability is very precarious.

Essentially this is a serious psychological position of denial, and therefore unreality.

I say a little more along the same lines here in this post :

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/the_amanda_knox_trainwreck_what_the_newly_published_knox_writings_reve/#comments

which you may find it useful to peruse…

Indeed it is also true the the latest (and ongoing) research into the brain and our neurology is finding exactly this ‘wired differently’ state.

The neurological networks are proving complex though, as one might reasonably expect. Interactions between at least 12 ‘hubs’ have been identified, and suppressed or enhanced activity at some of these is proving to be an indicator of some of these abnormal personality reactions.

The amygdala and the hippocampus,etc., and various brain chemicals/balances are being studied.

I look forward to a future where professional assessments can go straight to this kind of knowledge, - and bypass all the smooth and glib talking! Something incidently this personality type has in abundance - they actually do have enhanced frontal lobes that deal with being articulate and telling verbose stories!

The emotional and empathetic centres, by contrast, are depressed or undeveloped (or literally, smaller).

These persons can feign empathy, though, so it can be misleading. They are very good at giving the impression they wish to come across. And so, sadly, they all too often deceive and successfully manipulate, and someone therefore suffers.

We do have to improve, as a society, not just our understanding of the psychopathic personality, but, vitally, our timely recognition of it.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 06/11/15 at 02:10 PM | #

Hi Grahame

Sure, we have often used those terms, and Knox scores high on the psychopathic scale. Framing is all. We merely need to think of those new to the site trying to calibrate what it is about.

When that is the first thing they read, they may conclude the worst and read no more. Maybe now and then direct them to all of this?

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C444

Chimera’s is the most detailed by far but not the full post we carried on Jodi Arias, Sailor had one 18 months ago, here:

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/admitted_killer_on_the_witness_stand_in_arizona_is_resonating_and_pola/

Posted by Peter Quennell on 06/11/15 at 02:54 PM | #

Hi again Hopeful:

“She could have just slaughtered him on Facebook and social media and spread rumors among his friends, slashed his tires and ruined his paint, stolen his stuff or cut up his clothes. Egged his house.”

She did maybe slash his tires, not sure if you knew? That post 18 months ago I just linked to above reminded me.

Radar Online (which put up the reports about Knox’s drug dealer) had an article on this 2 years ago. Here ya go, the Psychopathic’s Handbook, Grahame will love this.

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2013/05/10-stalker-acts-committed-by-jodi-arias-against-travis-alexander-slashed-tires-email-hacking-eavesdropping/

10 ‘Stalker Acts’ Committed By Jodi Arias Against Travis Alexander: Slashed Tires, Email Hacking & Eavesdropping

1. Did She Slash His Tires?

Just four months before his death on June 4, 2008, Travis called the Mesa Police Department to make a complaint of “criminal damage” because the tires on his car were slashed.

The police report, which does not reveal who he suspected was responsible, will not be heard in court despite multiple witnesses referring to it during testimony in the four month-long trial and even in the initial 911 call reporting his death, reported ABC News.

“He has an ex-girlfriend who has been bothering him, following him and slashing tires and stuff. Things like that,” friend Mimi Hall frantically told the dispatcher after Travis’ bloody body was found.


2. She Eavesdropped On His Friends

It wasn’t only Travis who Jodi skulked around. When she was staying with Chris and Sky Hughes, the couple was discussing Arias’ strange behavior with Alexander one evening in their master bedroom and got the eerie sense they were being listened to. “Jodi was there, but she was downstairs in a different bedroom and sleeping,” Chris told HLNTV.

“So we’re talking for a couple hours and all of the sudden, my wife — she’s got a sixth sense about things – (whispered) ‘Oh, my gosh – (Jodi is) out there. She’s listening.’” Next came a knock at the door, and Jodi was there “asking if everything is OK.”

When Arias left, Sky had the same sense that she was outside the door once again. This time, Alexander jumped off the bed, jerked the door open and there she stood. “We were so freaked out,” said Hughes.


3. She Set Off His Burglar Alarm When He Was With Another Woman

Mimi Hall testified that Travis thought Jodi had followed him on a date, which was backed up by the “other woman.” Lisa Daidone (now Andrews) told the court that in mid to late February 2008 “strange things were happening,” when they were together. During one incident, a home security alarm alerted that a door had been opened but when the couple went to investigate they found nothing. “It was almost as if she knew we were together at the time,” she testified.


4. His Friends Told Cops ‘A Girl’s Been Stalking Him’

When Travis’ corpse was first discovered five days after his death, his friends immediately jumped to one conclusion when asked if he had been threatened.

“I immediately suspected Jodi and told the 911 people that I thought it was her,” pal Taylor Searle, who can be heard in the background of the chilling tapes, told Radar in an exclusive interview. “There’s a girl that’s been stalking him,” Hall confirmed in the panicked audio footage.


5. She Gave Off ‘A Bad Vibe’

Many of Travis’ friends revealed they felt uncomfortable around Jodi, with former colleague Jesse Macpherson exclusively telling Radar, “My wife didn’t like her (Jodi) from the start, we always got an odd vibe like she was hiding something,” he explained. “Her eyes were creepy and she was distant and didn’t seem like she was totally present. It seemed like she put on a happy, pretty look, but on the inside wasn’t really happy.

“Jodi always dressed for attention, every time I ever met her, and she got it for sure and is now relishing the spotlight,” he went on to reveal. “She is enjoying the limelight and starring in her own movie – she loves taking the stage, and that’s what it is for her in court.”


6. She Acted Like She Lived At His House

Rather than relaxing like a guest when friends visited Travis’ home, Jodi allegedly put on an act like she was the hostess, which Taylor Searle explained to Radar saying, “When I first met her we were at his house on a Sunday evening, there were people over from the church and we were all making cookies,” said Travis’ former roommate. “She presented herself to me as ‘his’ woman and welcomed me to her house.

“To me – as someone who was very close friends with him – she was already trying to make claims on my buddy and I didn’t even know her. It really rubbed me the wrong way,” he complained. “There were always small nuances like this. I was put off by how she was.”


7. She Treated His Death Like A ‘PR Campaign’

Jodi didn’t stop her obsessive mentality even after her former boyfriend was killed. “She immediately began posting all these photos and flooded his Facebook page with pictures of them and tried to position herself as his woman,” explained Taylor. “It was a like a PR campaign.

“I was disgusted because I was certain it was her, then she showed up at his memorial acting distraught.”


8. She Hacked His Email Account

Jodi admitted in court to accessing Travis’ personal emails, and what she found was not to her liking! One series of flirtatious messages went to a married Mormon woman, Shannon Crabtree, with whom Arias thought he was acting “inappropriately.”

“I was not having an affair with Travis! Jodi is a liar,” Crabtree exclusively told Radar. “I was going through a divorce from an alcoholic, an angry alcoholic, and Travis really helped me get through that. We never dated but we kissed one time. I was separated and by the time I got divorced he was dating someone else. I then married someone else and had babies. Travis wanted something more than I did in the relationship.”


9. She Allegedly Sent Threatening Messages To His Other Girlfriends

Not only did Jodi send sick and twisted emails to Travis, she also allegedly penned bizarre messages to his ex-girlfriend, Lisa Andrews. “You are a shameful w**re. Your Heavenly Father must be deeply ashamed of the whoredoms you’ve committed with that insidious man,” read the mystery message, according to a police report written by Mesa Police Dept. Det. Esteban Flores.

“If you let him stay in your bed one more time or even sleep under the same roof as him, you will be giving the appearance of evil. You are driving away the Holy Ghost, and you are wasting your time. You are also compromising your salvation and breaking your baptismal covenants… Your future, your salvations, and your posterity is resting on your choices and actions. You are a daughter of God, and you have been a shameful example.”


10. She Called His Phone – Again And Again And Again

From countless calls, texts, emails and even handwritten letters – Jodi could never leave Travis in peace for long – even in death. Phone records presented by the prosecution revealed that the brunette bombshell not only phone-stalked him in the days leading up to his murder (calling up to 10 times), but most bizarrely, she rang him four more times after the time of his death at around 5:30 p.m. on June 4, 2008.

During her post-killing road trip to Utah she left a chilling message even though she knew his cold corpse lay in the shower.

“I figured that eventually his voice mails are going to be listened to and this would throw the scent off,” she told the court during her testimony.

“I knew I had messed up pretty badly. I was very upset, I just wanted to die.”

Posted by Peter Quennell on 06/11/15 at 03:04 PM | #

No 5 is interesting..‘she didn’t seem like she was totally present’..

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 06/11/15 at 03:19 PM | #

Seeking Understanding:

Thank you for your very interesting and insightful reply. It certainly highlights the brain patterns behind the spooky commonality of behaviour of both Knox and Arias.

For some further, even more unsettling Arias behaviour, visit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uAdzxanpAk

It seems a fair reflection of Knox’s quirky behaviour, in so many ways.

Posted by Mealer on 06/11/15 at 05:06 PM | #

@Mealer
Yes. Hard to believe this is (theoretically) an adult..

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 06/11/15 at 05:46 PM | #


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