The Crime-Scene Clean-Up: How Rudy Guede’s Diary Provides Even More Proof That It Happened

Posted by pat az





This post is crossposted from my own place. Here is one of my previous crime scene analyses on TJMK.

Rudy Guede was ultimately declared convicted by the Supreme Court in 2010 of participating in the 2007 murder of Meredith Kercher.

The prosecution claims the two other participants are Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. Knox and Sollecito are currently appealing their conviction of the same crime.

The case against the three of them involves a suspected clean up of the hallway in the apartment after the crime. Meredith’s blood was found in the bathroom, and half a footprint in her blood was found on the bathroom mat. However, there was no visible blood between Meredith’s bedroom and the bathroom.

The only visible blood in the hallway were faint partial shoe prints that led directly out the front door of the apartment.

After the murder was discovered, the media reported almost daily on developments in the case. The day of the murder, the press reported on the blood found in the bathroom and the bedroom.

But until police used luminol at the apartment on December 18th, the media didn’t report on any significant blood found in the hallway.  Between November 2nd and December 18th, only one person stated that significant amounts of blood had been in the hallway.

Rudy Guede.

Rudy Guede actually wrote about it in his diary between Nov 20th and Dec 6th, after being captured in Germany.






The police arrived at the apartment on November 2nd. According to media reports, the blood they spotted immediately was only in the bathroom and Meredith’s bedroom.  When the scene was more closely examined, after the discovery of the body, police found visible blood patterns on the floor left by Guede’s left shoe as he left the apartment.

None of the people who arrived in the apartment on the afternoon of November 2nd reported seeing them; these footprints are not in any of the stories of the events of Nov 2nd told by Amanda Knox nor Raffaele Sollecito. So, while these prints were visible, they were not substantially obvious.

On December 18th 2007 investigators applied Luminol in the hallway and other bedrooms. This forensic chemical is used to detect blood which has been cleaned away. The Luminol revealed several footprints in the hallway between the bedrooms of Knox and Meredith. Example below. Some of these footprints were leading towards Meredith’s door.



They also discovered prints in Filomena’s room which contained Meredith’s DNA and Amanda Knox’s DNA. They also revealed a footprint in Amanda Knox’s bedroom. (The defense unsuccessfully contested the investigator’s conclusions that these prints were made with blood).

On November 19 2007, an international arrest warrant was issued for Rudy Guede. He was arrested in Germany on November 20th. Guede remained in Germany until his extradition on December 3rd.

During his stay in jail in Germany, Guede wrote a long statement that was published and translated. Guede’s writings are similar to to Knox’s jail writings in many ways - they both try to write out their own detailed version of events, while pointing blame elsewhere. 

But Guede’s comments may in fact be confirmation of a clean-up after the murder of Meredith Kercher (emphasis added):

I am asking myself how is it possible that Amanda could have slept in all that mess, and took a shower with all that blood in the bathroom and corridor? (Guede, Germany Diary, P21)

The police did not find evidence of any other blood until December 18th, AFTER Guede returned from Germany. As indicated above, the luminol revealed multiple footprints in the hallway, in Knox’s bedroom, and in Filomena’s bedroom. The image below shows these results in blue. Guede’s partial footprints are shown in red.






The conclusion is inescapable: Guede knew there would be significant evidence of blood in the hallway, before the police themselves found that evidence.

How did Guede know there would be more blood found in the hallway, before the police found that evidence on December 18th? And why wasn’t that blood there on the morning of November 2nd?

The courts believe the blood in the hallway was cleaned after the murder of Meredith Kercher. And the Micheli and Massei courts believed only one person had the motivation to hide this evidence: Amanda Knox.

Here is a summary of Judge Micheli’s October 2008 indictment finding.

In Judge Massei’s December 2009 trial finding for the original conviction of Knox and Sollecito, he also writes about the clean-up that the judges believed to have happened:

Further confirmation is constituted by the fact that, after Meredith’s murder, it is clear that some traces were definitely eliminated, a cleaning activity was certainly carried out. In fact, the bare foot which, stained with blood, left its footprint on the sky-blue mat in the bathroom, could only have reached that mat by taking steps which should have left other footprints on the floor, also marked out in blood just like (in fact, most likely, with even more [blood], since they were created before the footprint printed on the mat) the one found on the mat itself. Of such other very visible footprints of a bloody bare foot, on the contrary, there is no trace. (Massei, Dec 09; PMF translation)

In defense of Guede, Knox, and Sollecito, some might try to claim that Guede heard about blood in the hallway in the news. Rudy Guede was arrested 18 days following the murder of Meredith Kercher. During that time he had access to read the news and watch reports.

I have searched for articles in the period between November 2nd and December 18 which mention blood. All of the articles I have found so far discuss blood in the bedroom or the bathroom. One or two discuss footprints leading to the front door.

None of them discuss blood in the hallway that would justify a statement from Guede of “tutto quel sangue nel bagno e sul corridoghe” (all that blood in the bathroom and in the corridor)

Guede himself said he went between the bedroom and the bathroom, so may have tracked blood into the bathroom and therefore known blood would be found in the hallway.

Even that knowledge however confirms a clean-up, as there was not a trail of blood between the bathroom and Meredith’s room that justifies the footprint on the bathmat and blood found in the bathroom.

I have my own questions as a result of Guede’s knowledge of blood in the hallway:

Could the attack have started in the hallway? Could the first blood shed have been on the hallway tiles?

The prosecution and courts argue that Amanda Knox had a role in the attack and murder. Knox and her supporters are very adamant that there is no trace of Knox in Meredith’s bedroom. While the courts argue otherwise, could Knox’s role have been limited to the hallway?

Sadly, we may never know the full truth of what happened on the evening of November 1st, 2007.

My timeline of media reports on blood

  • Nov 2nd: Meredith Kercher found. Blood found in bathroom.
  • Nov 5th: Police analyzing traces of blood from apartment below.
  • Nov 5th:  A “trail of blood” is on the inside handle of the door to the apartment.
  • Nov 7th: reports of Amanda Knox’s statements, includes finding blood in the bathroom.
  • Nov 14th: Police use of Luminol at Sollectio’s house. First reports on the knife seized by police from Sollecito’s house.
  • Nov 19th: Analysis of blood in bedroom (pillow, bra, etc).
  • Nov 22nd: Guede’s prints in blood.
  • Nov 27th: Amanda Knox’s blood on bathroom tap.
  • Nov 28th: Blood in bathroom.
  • Dec 5th: Reports of Guede’s letter to father: “there was so much blood”.

My timeline of main events involving Guede

  • Nov 2nd, 2am – 4:30 am: Guede seen by witnesses at Domus nightclub.
  • Nov 3: Guede leaves Perugia for Germany
  • Nov 11: Guede’s cell phone tracked in Milan (Corriere)
  • Nov 12: Newspaper reports a 4th suspect.
  • Nov 19: Guede identified as suspect in newspapers
  • Nov 19: Guede skype conversation with friend.
  • Nov 20: Patrick released from prison.
  • Nov 20: Guede arrested while trying to return to italy on train in Germany.
  • Nov 21: Guede interrogated by German police; Guede admits to being at apartment, blames an italian man for murder.
  • Nov 20-Dec 5: Guede writes diary in German prison.
  • Dec 3:  Germany grants Guede’s extradition back to Italy.
  • Dec 6: Guede returns to Perugia.
  • Dec 7: Guede interrogated by Magistrate.
  • Dec 14: Guede ordered to remain in prison.
  • Dec 17: Knox is questioned by Mignini.
  • Dec 18: Police use luminol in apartment and find footprints in hallway and in Filomena’s bedroom.



Comments

The photographs are better than my most recent photograph I took for the visa application!

The shoeprints show only the left shoe. Please try this mental experiment. Imagine you are following the steps and think where your right foot will be placed.

Conclusion? Guede did not run out of the place: he walked a leisurely pace, looking left and right and watching the scene.

There is also a break in the middle of the dining room.

Knoxes footprints (apparently) are after she has washed her foot and these prints are therefore light. Blood clots and is very difficult to remove even after 10 mins.

Posted by chami on 11/10/13 at 02:38 PM | #

Astonishing proof of the case against Amanda Knox. Luminol doesn’t lie but Knox does. We know Guede was present at the murder and although he lies a lot, his words about so much blood in the hallway were later confirmed by police using Luminol. So that establlishes that some of what Guede said was true. His statement about the blood in the hall or corridor proves this blood was there when he left the crime scene and ran off. The blood he witnessed must have been later cleaned up and removed by barefoot people. He himself wore tennis shoes and walked through blood in them leaving shoeprints obvious. Funny how the cleanup crew didn’t bother to wash down his shoeprints, just their own prints.

A cleanup was done. So much for the in and out burglar theory.

@pat az, Thank you for a graphic look at the evidence against Amanda and Raffaele which convicted them at their first Perugian trial.

None of this evidence has changed. Your quandary about the attack beginning in the hallway where so many bloody footprints of Amanda were found, gives pause for thought.

It would certainly explain why Amanda clings to the FOA battle cry of no evidence of her in “the murder room”, mere hairsplitting of the liar.

Posted by Hopeful on 11/10/13 at 04:35 PM | #

Rudy could tell the truth to the Kerchers….

Posted by Bettina on 11/10/13 at 07:15 PM | #

Pat, your article is excellent. Thank you for writing it. The devil is in the details. Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have lied since the murder was discovered and they never stopped telling lies. Hardly a sign of innocence.

Even in their books, written freely and without the pressure from anyone, and interviews they cannot get their stories straight.

The blood evidence is never addressed in their tales. It’s a simple PR tactic. They want everyone to forget it exists.

Posted by Nell on 11/10/13 at 10:50 PM | #

If you have any high-res pictures, you should be able to see the brush strokes (parallel lines) on the photographs.

When the impression was made, it was stamped on the floor vertically but when the cleaning was done, after sometime, part of the blood has clotted and has become thick, but the brush or mop or whatever tool was used, it was trying to drag the thick blood onto the floor and the effect can be seen in a high-res photo.

You can even make out what was used for mopping but these are best left to the experts.  These are remarkably good pictures and a lot of semi-quantitative information can be extracted from them.

Posted by chami on 11/11/13 at 05:32 AM | #

Thanks for that chami : very interesting and very true, I just checked.
And thanks to Pat for the timely post - when I first heard the details about the blood, footprints and DNA evidence, all doubt was removed from my mind, and I reluctantly conceded that their part in this terrible crime must have been so.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 11/11/13 at 05:53 AM | #

I lived in Manchester, UK in the 90’s, it became known as ‘Gunchester’ for its violent gangland reputation, which spilled over into the club scene in the early 90’s.

I’ve seen my fair share of violence, from beatings to glassings, unfortunately, been on the receiving end a few times, always seemed to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Like Meredith, I trained in martial arts too, it didn’t get me out of every tricky situation; but it taught me to read people, what to expect before something happened and how to best react in a bad situation.

In Meredith’s difficult situation there was not a great deal she could have done, restrained by both arms, close to the floor, she had to go for the weakest of the three, Knox.

I believe she used a reverse elbow strike to AK’s face, likely the nose, hence AK’s mixed blood evidence, you don’t have to elbow your attacker that hard to do damage and it was the only option Meredith had.

This would have caused AK to jolt back in pain at which point RS instinctive reaction, having seen his so called ‘first love’ injured was to lash out and inflict the first knife wound.

Meredith screamed, AK inflicted the fatal knife wound to silence her, the final sequence of events was all over in a matter of seconds.

From experience, I can tell you that the wonderful thing about a nose bleed is the next day, the chances are you won’t feel any pain or discomfort, there’s no mark or visible wound, nothing.

(The exception being, if you suffer from a broken nose then you’ll likely have a couple of black eyes).  Here’s hoping one of the three comes clean and reveals the truth.

Posted by Urbanist on 11/11/13 at 06:05 AM | #

Raffaele Sollecito bespectacled young man, incapable of shame. Weak, compliant, pornography and bestiality warmed his sordid soul with themes his heart has sought as things he cannot name.Sorrows that feed on living hopes and fears, depravity committed to innocence where one hell following another the substance is sucked from tomorrow. (From the poem Meredith)
I read a comment by Sollecito to the effect that it was not believable that a murder weapon would be placed back in the cutlery drawer and not simply thrown away. Apart from the adage “the best place to hide a tree is in the forest,” has anybody got a theory of why they would have left it there?

Posted by Macthomas on 11/11/13 at 07:15 AM | #

@Urbanist

The scenario you present regarding Meredith’s terrible struggle intuitively seems about right,  to me anyway.

Posted by Odysseus on 11/11/13 at 08:14 AM | #

@Macthomas

“Apart from the adage “the best place to hide a tree is in the forest,” has anybody got a theory of why they would have left it there?”

In addition to the benefit of “hiding something in plain sight” there is also the consideration for RS that his place was rented, and there would have been an inventory of the cutlery. So a missing knife would become obvious - maybe fairly soon since (if I remember correctly) he was due to leave the accommodation in the near future.

Posted by Odysseus on 11/11/13 at 09:28 AM | #

Thank You, pat, for this excellent and very interesting post. 

Guede is a liar, however, there does seem to be some slight truths mixed in with some of his lies. 

On this point about the clean-up, I believe Guede— for ONCE—told the truth about the amount of the blood that was in the cottage.  Amazing, isn’t it, that much of this blood miraculously disappeared when Meredith was found, which clearly proved evidence of a major cleanup by Knox.

One more thing:  Remember Knox’s statement at the police station where she said to Meredith’s friends that she “bled to death” ?  This statement by Knox gives more credibility to Guede’s statement about the amount of blood in the cottage.  Knox KNEW !

It’s high time for TRUE Justice for Meredith !

Posted by MissMarple on 11/11/13 at 09:42 AM | #

@ Urbanist & Odysseus


Seemingly Meredith studied martial arts for only a short while, and captured only a couple of the early belts. This will of course give her some basic ability, on the practice mat in the controlled environment of a karate school, facing friendly foes who have no real intention to cause harm.

Theres a big difference however when faced with three crazed attackers, armed with knives and bad intentions, I imagine Meredith would have found it almost impossible to utilise her skills. The fear and panic alone in a situation like this can often be incapacitating. 

I think her only evasive or defensive action was to scream, bless her.

When outnumbered three to one, facing crazed animals armed with knives and fuelled by drugs, with death on their menu, unless one is able to run away, there aren’t many favourable outcomes.

I only wish i could have been there to intervene, things would be different..

I’m so angry and upset. Six years on, like many of others, i still carry the pain around with me.

Posted by mollythecat on 11/11/13 at 09:51 AM | #

Here are links to the photos I took in Perugia and Casssazione, with my impressions (written at greater length in PMF dot net)

You’re welcome to use them at dot org and TJMK, with attribution to Ergon at http://www.perugiamurderfile.net but regardless, enjoy.

They really help establish the mood and locations of the place, and I gained many impressions from them.

http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=433

http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=432

Posted by Ergon on 11/11/13 at 09:55 AM | #

@Urbanist

You need to factor in the fact that there was one item missing from Filomena’s room: a part from her make-up kit, if I remember correctly.

How does it fit in the overall picture?

Posted by chami on 11/11/13 at 10:44 AM | #

@Macthomas - the knife has been discussed countless times here and over on pmf.org

Theories range from:

- they never expected RS’s flat to be searched (Meredith had never been there - no reason logically) so no fear, once scrubbed clean in bleach

- RS was moving out shortly (it was a rented flat) and a missing knife on the inventory would be more obvious further down the line

- they couldn’t replace the knife with an exact match (remember that inventory) as the manufacturer had gone out of business

- trophy

- buying a knife in the town in the aftermath of the murder would draw attention to themselves

- a knife in a cutlery drawer is far less obvious to the casual observer than a knife in a the waste bin

Personally my favourite is:

- they thought there were too smart for the police and had committed the perfect murder - why on earth would anyone consider them as suspects, as long as they were each others alibi? Of what possible reason or motive could the police have in opening that drawer?

FOA response: to frame them

The real question is, not why they kept the knife, but why did the police open that drawer and search that flat? Because AK exhibited bizarre behaviour (guilt?) and placed herself at the scene of the crime.

Posted by TruthWillOut on 11/11/13 at 11:28 AM | #

Interesting, chami. Do you know what the item was?
Not, perhaps, some skin foundation that might just disguise a mark on the neck?

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 11/11/13 at 11:49 AM | #

As time has gone on I personally love every continuing logical aspect as pointed out by TruthWillOut and so many others (see above)

Today is Remembrance Day. The 11th day of the 11th month etc. And for me personally with regard to Meredith and the bright star she was and to us still is and always will be, for we celebrate her life every time we contribute herein.

“At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them.”

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 11/11/13 at 11:57 AM | #

“You feel the last bit of breath leaving their body. You’re looking into their eyes. A person in that situation is God!”

“I didn’t know what made people want to be friends. I didn’t know what made people attractive to one another. I didn’t know what underlay social interactions. “

“What’s one less person on the face of the earth, anyway?”

“I don’t feel guilty for anything. I feel sorry for people who feel guilt.”

All the above quotes are from Theodore Bundy.

I can imagine Knox and Sollecito agreeing with every single one of the above.

Knox has said some equally chilling things over the years too.

Posted by mollythecat on 11/11/13 at 12:49 PM | #

In my opinion Knox cares about Knox. It’s all about her, she has neither empathy or sympathy, or any other ‘thy’ for anyone or anything. Cold, heartless, and calculating individual. Her fathers the same.


FM: Do you think about her in your daily life, do you think about this friend
who was with you in your house?

AK: Yes, I remember her. But in the end, I only knew her for one month, and
more than anything, I am trying to think how to go forward with my own life,
so yes, I remember her, and I am so upset about what happened, and
sometimes it seems to me that it can’t be real. I don’t really know what
to think of this thing. But yes. I suffered.

FM: All right. We heard, and you gave testimony on this point, about your
behavior in the Questura, the cartwheel, the gymnastics, the stretching and
so forth.

AK: Yes.

FM: According to you, was this behavior appropriate, a normal behavior faced
with such a misfortune, or was this something special?

AK: According to me, each person confronts a tragedy in their own way, and I am
used to trying to find normality, at least my own normality, in situations
of difficulty. This is my way of feeling more secure, because I was feeling
really, really, really scared of what had happened, very shocked. I didn’t
know how to face up to the situation, and for me it was surreal, but I
was obliged to accept the fact that it had happened, so my behavior—yes,
I know that they are a bit lighthearted, but that’s just how I am.

Posted by mollythecat on 11/11/13 at 01:11 PM | #

I have a few questions about the photo (composite one) showing the foot and shoeprints.

1. Were the red prints (shoeprints) taken with TMB?

2. Were the blue prints (footprints) taken with luminol? This makes it a collage,

3. What is the significance of the green circles?

4. Were the DNA traces examined from these prints?

5. I am not really good at image processing but a quick look in gimp showed lots of interesting features. Particularly if you try to change the contrast and brightness.

6. Where the bathmat was located? I thought it should be right in front of the door of the small bathroom.

Posted by chami on 11/11/13 at 01:16 PM | #

@mollythecat

I agree, fear and panic alone in a situation like this can often be incapacitating, but Meredith had many injuries and the timing of the scream says to me that she put up a fight and didn’t succumb to her fear.  Before the scream she suffered a 15 minute attack, she could have screamed from the moment the attack first took place but by all accounts, she didn’t. When facing multiple attackers on the street you have less than a second to find an escape route and run, Meredith didn’t have this option but she did know her attackers and would have known that Knox was the weakest of the three.

@chami

I was not aware of the missing makeup but assuming Knox needed it to cover an injury received before she inflicted the fatal wound:
If Knox has hold of the knife in one hand it’s safe to assume she is gripping Meredith with the other hand, a one handed grip is significantly weaker than a two handed grip. Knox loses her grip in the struggle, Meredith lashes out scratching Knox, possibly causing the mark on her the neck, Knox attempts to grab her again at which point Meredith uses her elbow. Three people know exactly what happened.

Posted by Urbanist on 11/11/13 at 03:10 PM | #

The mark on AK’s neck looks like it could have been caused by the tip of the blade, did Knox fall and injure herself with the knife after Meredith struck her?

Posted by Urbanist on 11/11/13 at 03:17 PM | #

@MissMarple

Yes I agree Guede was a liar but lying is what many people do when consequences catch up.

There’s something about Guede that differentiates him from the other two, including his expression of remorse. He had a very hard upbringing compared with the bourgeoise backgrounds of Knox and Sollecito, and it’s hard not to feel some sympathy for him (I know he was eventually adopted in Italy and so on but look at his early life - really tough).Detractors call him “a drifter” which is not only not true but also reveals something totally dishonourable about those who are making the accusations.

Does it eventually come down to two sociopathic and over-indulged white middle class kids, with a burgeoning taste for the wild side of life, hooking up with someone who no doubt presented to them all the apparent credentials of the “heroic outsider” they idolized - and drawing him in to their druggy madness?

It’s Rudy I want something from - there’s hope there, there’s a refreshing glint of honesty from him in all this. The other two? Not so much. The narcissistic duo are beyond redemption I would say, but I’m willing to be proved wrong.

Posted by Odysseus on 11/11/13 at 03:43 PM | #

@SeekingUnderstanding

I think it was also mentioned on one of these forums.

I think it was also mentioned by Follian.

It also appeared in Guardian.

“Romanelli’s possessions had been gone through, although nothing was missing except, perhaps, some makeup.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/feb/05/meredith-kercher-murder-trial

It was also part of the witness testimony. I cannot locate it so quickly here.

Posted by chami on 11/11/13 at 03:55 PM | #

Random thoughts. @Macthomas what a wonderful line in your poem, “themes his heart has sought as things he cannot name” and “sorrows that feed on living hopes and fears”. One commenter said Knox had used a Sylvia Plath reference recently on Knox’s new memorial page to Meredith, some reference to Plath’s “I Am a Riddle in 9 Syllables”. I couldn’t follow it.

@Urbanist, since you have some real street fighting experience which it truly takes to understand what happened, you may be on the right track to suggest Meredith did a reverse elbow strike which hit Knox in the face. If so Knox reeled in agony grabbing her bloody nose in pain, probably yelped or screamed herself. This would cause Raffaele to retaliate with the first knife wound. It sounds plausible. Meredith was also a dancer, she used her body with ease. It would be second nature for her to try to kick and move against aggressors.

Knox lately has begun to say on TV that she had never even had a spanking from her mother before, which made Knox extremely indignant when police slapped her on the head. This sounds like a true emotional reaction from Knox. Could Meredith have released the same rage and “righteous indignation” by slapping Knox somewhere in the head. Nothing stings the ego like a slap in the face? maybe with the elbow.

Posted by Hopeful on 11/11/13 at 03:59 PM | #

@Urbanist

There was a scream, but we’ll never know who made that scream, it was either Knox or Meredith.

It is generally thought that Meredith screamed. BUT

1/Maybe Meredith screamed when she saw the knives

2/Maybe Meredith screamed when the sexual assault began

3/Maybe Meredith screamed when the pain began or..

4/Maybe Knox screamed because Meredith was getting the better of her.

5/Maybe Knox screamed in fury because Meredith fought back.

6/Maybe it was a scream to mock poor Meredith.

7/Maybe Knox screamed when she realised what they had done

We will never ever know. If i had to choose I would say the scream came when Guede used his finger.

Dont forget there was a point in time when Poor Meredith was no longer capable of screaming as her vocal chords had been damaged.

To be perfectly honest i try my best not to think too much about it, as i find it distressing.

The prosecution seemingly presented to the jury a very powerful animated account of that final few minutes. The video is said to account for all injuries sustained. I have not seen it.

Posted by mollythecat on 11/11/13 at 04:49 PM | #

@Hopeful - reminds me of the lyrics to a song: “... only I turned bad, didn’t get the lickings that the other ones had ...”

Perhaps the sequence of events was something like

1. the fifteen minute attack in which numerous small wound were inflicted
2. Meredith manages to elbow AK in the nose
3. Meredith receives the first knife wound in the neck - RS or AK?
4. Meredith screams in response to that serious wound
5. Meredith receives the second fatal knife wound in the neck from an enraged AK, to stop her screaming and retaliate for the painfully bleeding nose

@pat_az - Is there a link to RG’s diary? By the way, I think what RG meant was “how is it possible that Amanda could have slept through all that commotion?” The expression “fare un casino” is kind of like “raise hell” (quite a befitting description of the actions of AK, RS and RG).

God Bless Meredith on this Remembrance Day.

Posted by Patrizio on 11/11/13 at 05:03 PM | #

thanks Odysseus : thanks Hopeful. I can see the sense of the argument.

Posted by Macthomas on 11/12/13 at 06:39 AM | #

Can someone explan me this: since one murder weapon was this big kitchen knife that was found in Sollecito’s apartment, how was it brought to the murder scene?

Only answer in my mind is that this murder was indeed PREMEDITATED. Otherwise they would have used the knives from Amanda’s house, and of course Sollecito’s pocket knife.

But no, they must have decided to kill Meredith before they left Sollecito’s apartment, that’s the only explanation. OR was this knife originally from the girl’s house perhaps?

I have lived too with many female students in a small flat, and I have to say that these kinds of anger, hate, and loathing against each other arent so rare at all. In fact it is very common.

Students rarely ever choose who they have to live with, and if someone causes disturbance, like bringing men home, not cleaning etc. the anger and hate can go quickly bad.

One of my flatmates tried to steal from me, one left on purpose her radio very loud when she left for work early in the morning knowing I was asleep.Then she brought her boyfriend to live there, he was there when the girl wasn’t.

There was lots of hate, jealousy,mocking, nasty comments,etc. Mayby boys are different, but with girls it’s not nice. I believe with 100 % certainty that the motive for this murder was hate.

Posted by Poppins on 11/12/13 at 10:14 AM | #

@Poppins
Yes of course it was hate and jealousy. Meredith was everything Knox wasn’t and never could be and then some. As to premeditation we will probably never know for sure. Sollecito loves knifes and perhaps he took it with him just to scare. Or perhaps it was premeditated. The outcome though was probably a shock to these two since killing and blood have a very profound effect upon the human psyche. There is a condition called ‘blood simple’ where the perpetrator loses it for a short period. since these two were drugged up anyway perhaps that condition does not apply.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 11/12/13 at 10:26 AM | #

SeekingUnderstanding said “Interesting, chami. Do you know what the item was? Not, perhaps, some skin foundation that might just disguise a mark on the neck?”

I suspect that if some of Filomena’s make up was missing it was to make the robbery scenario look more believable.  While some make-up can be very expensive, it’s nothing compared to gold jewelry, designer sunglasses, or a laptop, so if they were going to remove something to add authenticity to the scene, it would have been something relatively small and easy to replace.  I suspect that Knox genuinely liked Filomena and didn’t want to take or destroy her personal things (sort of absurd, considering the atrocity committed in the next room).

I find it unlikely that Knox would have tried to use Filomena’s foundation because it would have been far too dark for her.  Knox is very pale, and using the wrong concealer would only draw attention to whatever she was trying to mask.

***

Poppins said “OR was this knife originally from the girl’s house perhaps?”

The knife was from Raffaele’s apartment, as noted by his landlord’s inventory. 

You make good points about the sort of strong dislike that can develop among unwilling roommates.  I said from the beginning that certain things about Knox reminded me strongly of my own roommate in college - promiscuity, substance abuse, some narcissistic tendencies, an extreme need for attention, a willingness to hurt the only people who had been nice to her, etc. 

The strangest thing was that while she made some attempts early on to humiliate me, after a while she started showing up at places where I hung out after class, tried to befriend my friends, started to become involved in my own extracurriculars, etc.  People were very uncomfortable when she was around and several of them told me they thought she was trying to be me.

Sort of disturbing, but at least she was never violent.  Mean, yes, but I don’t think the possibility of killing someone ever entered her conscience no matter how drunk or stoned she was. 

My friends have also had some strange roommates, but while there was obnoxiousness, passive aggressiveness, lack of decorum, guys sleeping over and then not leaving for 3 days, and the ubiquitous substance abuse (usually alcohol and/or marijuana), again none of them was ever particularly violent.

People like Knox aren’t all that common, to be fair.  The fact that poor Meredith happened to share a house with her was extraordinary bad luck, as a less pretty and less accomplished girl might not have set her off (although the vulnerability and low self-esteem of people who don’t have much going on for themselves tend to attract bullying, so Knox might have ended up assaulting her roommate “as a prank” anyway).

Posted by Vivianna on 11/12/13 at 12:56 PM | #

@Vivianna

But when we compare the other alternative, i.e., Guede stole some of her make-up item, we are forced to make a decision one way or the other.

The next few days were so hectic, nobody had any time to take a careful look at anybody else.

This is of course is a hypothesis. Nothing more.

Posted by chami on 11/12/13 at 03:05 PM | #

@ Hopeful
Just to clarify, whilst I have experienced street violence, it wasn’t something I went looking for, I always seemed be in the wrong place at the wrong time. When heading for a night out with friends, they used to joke that if there was any trouble they’d be ok because I’d be the one on the end of it.

‘Could Meredith have released the same rage and “righteous indignation” by slapping Knox somewhere in the head’.

Back in 1992 I used to go clubbing every weekend, on one occasion I’d left my wallet in the car so headed back to the car park.
As I returned to the car some guy pulled a huge army knife on me, he didn’t want anything of value, he just stood there saying ‘I’m gonna cut you up’ over and over again. Normally I would have gotten out of there asap but I felt so angry with this guy I just stood there remonstrating with him, the situation was quickly resolved and we went out separate ways. Later that night, inside the club, the guy approached me and apologised saying he was high on speed and wasn’t thinking straight. When fear turns to anger one is more likely to fight back.

Posted by Urbanist on 11/12/13 at 05:07 PM | #

@ mollythecat
Nara Capezzali testified that on the night of the murder she heard a terrible scream then the sound of running footsteps.
We may never know who made it but assuming the running footsteps are the perps, this would place the scream at the end of the attack.

Posted by Urbanist on 11/12/13 at 05:32 PM | #

@ Urbanist

It’s a small world, I’ve lived in Manchester all my life, and i too used to go in the pubs and clubs in the city centre in the 80s and 90s. Rotters, Pips, Hacienda on Whitworth St’ was my favourite. You would find me and my mates most weekends knocking about. It was a dangerous place to be for sure especially in the 90s when acid house gripped the scene and the drug dealers took over the doors.

Yes i agree the scream was shortly followed by running sounds on the metal steps and gravel path. However, I think Guede said he hung around for a while attempting to staunch the blood with towels. This is interesting because if he’s telling the truth, and i believe at least on this point that he is, could mean that Knox and Sollecito maybe split up and went in two directions. Guede shortly thereafter exiting and violently bumping into a gentleman out walking with his girlfriend.

I’m not sure we will ever know the exact details. For the life of me I can’t understand why Guede does not come clean and tell all. He has nothing now to lose. If he was a real man and truly sorry he would get on his knees and beg forgiveness. He should tell the truth and nail those other two psychos.

Posted by mollythecat on 11/12/13 at 07:08 PM | #

But if Rudy Guede has witnessed such a cruel murder - as there is no doubt he has, (supposing it wasn’t he who used the knife)...would he not be terrified of what these same perpetrators could do to him? Would he ever feel safe again?

In his recent letter to the court, he says that the whole story will not come out until ‘sexual violence’ is admitted, and also that this is something he has had no part in.
Leaving aside the latter claim, why would he offer this extra information if not true?
I sometimes think he wants to tell things, but is too scared, and perhaps says things in his own coded way.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 11/12/13 at 08:12 PM | #

@Chami - I don’t think that Guede stole the make-up or anything, for that matter. 

I just think that if make-up disappeared, it wasn’t to cover Knox’s scratches, but to make the “robbery” look more believable.  She couldn’t have used Filomena’s foundation, while any other make-up would have been of no interest to her, as I understand she didn’t use make-up back then.  I doubt it that after killing Meredith, she thought to herself, “oh, now I can take that Yves St. Laurent lipstick I’ve always wanted!” At most, it was probably something along the lines of “it’s gonna look weird if nothing gets taken, but I don’t really want to take Filomena’s stuff.  Maybe grab something from that make-up box?”

Posted by Vivianna on 11/12/13 at 08:45 PM | #

@SeekingUnderstanding

“I sometimes think he wants to tell things, but is too scared, and perhaps says things in his own coded way”

I too. I do not think that he is scared but I feel that his silence has been purchased.

Although he has been pictured as a petty criminal before this event, let us not forget that he was friendly with the boys downstairs and knew the two girls upstairs. He belonged to the same social class in some sense and he does not appear to be a man of violence.

We are missing the preamble. What was the deal? What went wrong?

Posted by chami on 11/13/13 at 02:25 AM | #

I agree chami…though I also think fear is present.
The preamble, yes.
?
Sharing drugs? Money or otherwise ‘payment’ for them? False promises (= lies) from Knox?

I have noticed that he has referred to the murder as ‘this horrible murder’ and ‘this cruel death’, and ‘poor Meredith’.
This is in stark contrast to the Two’s distancing language.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 11/13/13 at 03:33 AM | #

Younger men than Guede were frightened on the battlefield at the Somme and Passchendaele. Teenage boys slaughtered by machine gun, gas and sniper fire. Life expectancy measured in mere minutes when they went ‘over the top’

That is real fear, stone cold fear of imminent death. These young lads, overcame their fear for us. For all of us so that we may live in a decent world. They died so we could bring our children up and live in a world without fear, without prejudice, without pain.

My grandfather Mathew, was frightened on his first day at work down a coal mine at the age of fourteen, in 1924

My Grandfather Maurice was frightened when his ship was sunk in the north atlantic in the second world war. He was 19 years old.

These three cowards are not fit to grace this earth. Fear….. what does Guede know about fear….NOTHING

Guede has been in prison for six years now and has more time to do. His life will hopefully be very difficult when he gets out.  He will always be known, and quite rightly, as a murderer and sexual devient.

Like i said before, to gain any respect now, he needs to be a man, and explain to the family what went on. I don’t care how ‘frightened’ he is.

As for the other two ‘individuals’ I have nothing but disgust that they can still breathe the same oxygen that i breathe.

Posted by mollythecat on 11/13/13 at 06:41 AM | #

Guede may be a coward in some ways, or not, but we cannot know for certain about his inner fears.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 11/13/13 at 06:49 AM | #

I know a girl who knows about fear. Meredith Susannah Kara Kercher.

Three animals hurting her, violating her, causing her so much pain it makes me recoil even as i write this, then leaving her for dead, alone in the dark, unable to even cry for help.

What does Guede know about fear…..ABSOLUTELY NOTHING…

Posted by mollythecat on 11/13/13 at 06:49 AM | #

@mollythecat

When you are faced with danger and fear, your real character shows in full glory.

There is no evidence that she succumbed to fear; she fought bravely. That is a very personal opinion but I do belive that. That was a terrible uneven fight and she died a heroic death. She suffered but she did not yield.

I do not know whether the criminals will go to the prison. I do believe that the European prisons are hundred times luxurious than American ones. But I do know that the cowards will live a life studded with fear. They will be haunted at night and they will wake up with a scream in the morning.

She was a couragous girl. That she did not live is incidental.

We know so many great people have sacrificed their lives for their beliefs. Life and death is a poor measure of the quality of life.

Life is so unfair!

Posted by chami on 11/13/13 at 07:47 AM | #

@ Chami

You are absolutely correct. I was emotional when i posted earlier. Having had time to reflect i will correct myself

I know a girl who knows about courage.

Meredith Susannah Kara Kercher.

Three animals hurting her, violating her, causing her so much pain it makes me recoil even as i write this, then leaving her for dead, alone in the dark, unable to even cry for help.

What does Guede know about courage…..ABSOLUTELY NOTHING…

RIP Meredith

Posted by mollythecat on 11/13/13 at 10:43 AM | #

@mollythecat

I can understand why it makes you feel very emotional.

The cruelty is so enormous that I still find it hard to fathom, and hard to believe that ‘fellow’ humans could really do this. The cruelty and callousness stun me.

Even animals rarely indulge in gratuitous violence.

Justice is necessary, and so is acknowledgement from the perpetrators. We will keep working for it.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 11/13/13 at 12:14 PM | #

@mollythecat
@chami

I fully concur with what you say.I remember when AK and RS were set free during the Hellmann appeal I was physically sick, it affected me that much.

I’ve just watched a DVR recording of the interview Knox gives to Chris Cuomo, and when he mentions the mop being used in the clean up she is almost laughing, how can anybody be so cruel, it is just beyond belief.

When it comes to the three animals, though, Knox is by far the most dangerous, she has that reptilian predator like quality. She needs to go away for a long time

Posted by forres on 11/13/13 at 01:07 PM | #

@SeekingUnderstanding

I was stunned when I saw the grand reception AK received when she reached Seattle.

I was wondering why this hero’s welcome? What she has done? Or she did not? I did not understand.

There is something wrong with her supporters as well. Are they really so dumb that they cannot see?

So many things do not appear right.

How did she polarize the world?

Is American PR really so powerful?

People getting away from justice is not rare. But what is rare is people gloating over it.

Posted by chami on 11/13/13 at 01:45 PM | #

@chami

Yes indeed. It feels like a new moral low, a moral vacuum…as if all that is meaningful and precious is swept regardlessly into a black hole, and we just hear noise.

‘The devil is in the detail’...that is a phrase that often comes to mind with this case. (You are excellent with detail). Perhaps, here, the devil is brushing aside all detail!  Giving ‘best versions’ ...whatever comes to mind that is convenient.

Sloppiness of thinking, the ‘modern’ disregard of detail - the ‘whatever’ approach…this really is a slippery slope.

We have to start with a simple principle, I feel. That is - Is something true? Is it not true? Is it a lie? Is it uncertain?

Then, as you say, place all the jigsaw pieces together, that we do have, and assemble the whole picture, to the best of our ability.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 11/13/13 at 02:19 PM | #

@chami

Re “people gloating”  Remember Bill Ayers? 

“Bill Ayers remembered his reaction upon learning that he would not be prosecuted by the government for his bombing spree as a member of the Weather Underground.

“Guilty as hell, free as a bird—is America a great country, or what?” he exulted. ”

Posted by Cardiol MD on 11/13/13 at 03:12 PM | #

@chami

Not all of us in the U.S. are as ignorant as those at that reception. Unfortunately PR is very powerful here.

I have an intelligent friend in Seattle whom I have tried to review the facts with, but he remains in the “other” camp. Oddly, opinions on issues here in the U.S. do tend to split almost evenly - 50/50 - regardless of the issue.

My only consolation is to repeat to myself Feynman’s adage that “half the people are below average.” That is no consolation for the pain that I also feel and the empathy I share with you.

There is something else I would like to add: there are a lot of references in these posts to the excellent expression “the devil is in the details.” To this I would like to add the idea of “dancing with the devil,” which is something the people at that reception seem to enjoy.

Posted by Patrizio on 11/13/13 at 04:43 PM | #

Hi Patrizio,

Anyone who works in advertising, marketing, PR or sales knows that it’s very easy to manipulate and misinform many people. Your friend may be academically intelligent, but he doesn’t seem to be emotionally intelligent.

I think one of the reasons why so many innocenisti refuse to change their minds when confronted with the real evidence is that they don’t want to face up to the fact they’ve been taken in by the PR campaign and supported two sadistic sex killers.

When I have a bit more free time, I’m going to write a detailed post explaining how PR creep David Marriott has used some tried and tested influence techniques in order to brainwash people into believing Knox and Sollecito are innocent. I hope your friend reads it.

Posted by The Machine on 11/13/13 at 06:47 PM | #

@patrizio

‘Dancing with the devil’...that’s good. As if playfully, as if it’s part of a game, a show. But forgetting that ‘the devil’ is sadistic and chaotic, and life is not a game but serious.

And then perhaps realizing too late ( as The Machine says) and being unable to admit it.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 11/14/13 at 05:41 AM | #

@The Machine
I look forward to reading your post. I must say I have shied away from looking too closely at the Marriott material - it feels so insidiously evil that I try to avoid it. I have also seen some incredibly distracting/misleading information - really just falsehods presented as facts - in posts by “others” that I have always assumed must come from Marriott’s minions, or “paid shills” as they are often called. Hopefully you can shine a light on that as well.

I agree with your description “sadistic sex killers.” One thing in this regard that I think deserves a closer look is the “drug” theme - or rather “meme” - that runs through this case. Two thing concern me. First, if it were just the “spinello” described, this would have a calming effect, not a psychotic effect, unless it were laced with something like “angel dust,” in which case all bets are off and terrible things could result. Second, if a “spinello” were involved, then the clean-up afterwards, and all the corresponding decision-making, would have been incredibly difficult, given the clouded thinking of someone in that condition (one would expect more mistakes). These two things suggest the hypothesis that drugs - or at least a common “spinello” - may not have been a factor at all, and then all that remains are the psychotic minds of the “sadistic sex killers.”

Posted by Patrizio on 11/14/13 at 05:16 PM | #

@patrizio. All their media appearances since point to the fact there is something terribly wrong with them mentally, almost like you would imagine Manson like groupies.

But in this case, it does appear there was a premeditation based on the carriage of the knife to the cottage, and yes, I do think drugs were a factor, just simply not the reason why it happened. A very bad confluence of events which led to Meredith’s horrible murder.

Posted by Ergon on 11/14/13 at 09:01 PM | #

Hi,I would like ask your opinion what will happen in the future for Amanda, if she is convicted? I believe usa will not send her to Italy.But, it doesn’t even matter.She will be put on Interpol’s top 20 wanted fugitives list anyway, and perhaps with a 1 million dollar reward for her capture.Isn’t this so? So, she will NEVER again be able to leave Usa. If she crosses the country’s border, her data will appear automaticly for border control police and she will be send in hand cuffs in Italy. I bet she will not risk that. She will not ever have a succesfull career or a decent job.Maybe she tries to write more rape fantasy novels, and sell them now that she has made a name for herself.
By the way, I saw her “bff’s”(Madison Paxton) fine art work in her web page. Rather sad really. It loks like “art” of a 5 y.o. Take a look your self!

Posted by Poppins on 11/15/13 at 06:13 AM | #

...continues. So, technically, Amanda will be in prison, that is called America, for the rest of her life .She will never leave that soil.

Posted by Poppins on 11/15/13 at 06:15 AM | #

Maybe Knox will finally fulfill the promise she made whilst she was still in prison and help others who have been incarcerated. Like this man here who was sentenced to life without parole for the mere offence of stealing an expensive jacket.http://www.alternet.org/man-was-sentenced-die-prison-shoplifting-159-jacket-happens-more-you-think
Perhaps Knox and her cronies will try to do something to help him, though I rather doubt they will.

Posted by aethelred23 on 11/15/13 at 03:43 PM | #

Some organizations, societies, groups of people have immense power and very long arms, which could reach anyone anywhere.
Strange things could and do happen in prisons, and RG is aware of it, no doubt.
This would explain his silence, I believe.

By-the-way, the same long arms, in my opinion, played a decisive role in the acquittal.
The invisible forces behind the stage.

I am not a conspiracy theorist, but things often are not what they appear to be.
The younger generation are less likely to consider such factors, but those of us, who lived many more years, and experienced, heard and read more, would look at the same events/issues with more experienced eyes.
It does not follow that we ‘oldies’ are necessarily right, but our experience might bring in new ideas. That is all.

Justice is coming for the Kercher family, and their wonderful daughter will always be remembered by the good people in the world.

Once again, many thanks to everyone contributing, and have a very good New Year.

Posted by Babushka on 01/02/14 at 07:57 AM | #


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