Tuesday, November 05, 2013

RS And AK Seemingly Competing To “Appropriate” Meredith: Ghoulish, Sadistic And Very Cruel? Or…?

Posted by The TJMK Main Posters





Amanda Knox has stated several times on national TV that she would like to visit Meredith’s grave.

Meredith’s father responded very firmly that this was quite out of the question. The family will never approve. Perhaps predictably, Raffaele Sollecito then announced triumphally that he had already been.

We can be sure that this exchange will do them no good at all in the Florence court, where the prospects of Judge Massei’s special considerations (which lopped five years off their sentences) being re-allowed by the Nencini court now seem pretty dim.

Other than as a ghoulish competition, can this be seen any other way? Last Saturday, Skeptical Bystander, no great lover of the perps, aired the suggestion that we might be seeing a new psychological phase coming into play

Skeptical Bystander

My thinking has evolved somewhat about the report that RS visited Meredith’s grave, as well as about AK’s non-stop chatter about doing so with the Kerchers and her grotesque appropriation of Meredith.

I just caught part of a documentary treatment of the Menendez case, wherein two brothers, Lyle and Eric, killed their parents. Both were sentenced to life in prison. In a probation report, Lyle is quoted as saying he has found peace by visiting his parents’ grave, asking for forgiveness, and understanding that they have forgiven him.

It is entirely possible that both AK and RS want forgiveness from Meredith and from her family. What they don’t seem to realize is that they can’t take shortcuts or be given a free pass. Lyle Menendez got sentenced for his crime and began the process of self-examination that leads to accountability.

We asked two of our posting psychologists if we could indeed be seeing something like this. With their agreement, this is their email exchange, in which they both concede that Skeptical Bystander may have had a point:

Psychologist A:

It is entirely probable they want, indeed crave, ‘forgiveness’. The problem is that dysfunctional or disturbed personalities may be able to be aware of their guilt, but not of their shame.

The guilt would want the forgiveness, but the process that leads to the resolution that is forgiveness will not occur - indeed I believe cannot occur- until the shame is ‘owned’.

Just judging from Raffaele’s and Amanda’s faces alone, I would estimate that Raff is slightly nearer than Amanda in approaching his own shame. Unfortunately I see zero in Amanda, and therein lies the huge problem.

If someone lacks sincerity, someone else or circumstances cannot make them more sincere - what I call authentic. It has to come from self-realization.

That’s my ‘take’!

Psychotherapist B:

At a certain point, this is all just speculation about someone I’ve never met, so it’s hard to say one way or another.

My best guess would be that in this case neither Knox nor Sollecito has shown any public signs of really being able to admit to themselves that they’ve done anything to be sorry for.

For what it’s worth, my overall impression, based on what’s been made public, is that Knox would likely not ever have killed anyone if she hadn’t been high and in an especially reckless period of her life and influenced by meeting Sollecito.

She might have gone on being somewhat impulsive and aggressive without ever actually harming anyone, and with luck she might have outgrown it in a few years. I think the kind of cruelty we’ve seen in this case is driven by unconscious feelings and motives.

Clearly it pains her to be seen as guilty; the idea that anyone can think that about her bothers her a lot. It’s easier for me to picture her wanting a visit to Meredith Kercher’s grave to somehow clear her of all of this upsetting suspicion, than truly wanting Meredith’s forgiveness - more wanting to get rid of shame than to atone for guilt or repair harm, if that makes sense.

When I think of forgiveness, I think of a more mature kind of experience. It takes maturity and integrity to own that you’ve done something harmful, to withstand whatever feelings of shame and guilt the realization brings, and to seek to make actual reparation. 

But anyone can feel haunted by having done a bad thing, and want someone to take the haunting away. I’m reminded of Bill in Oliver Twist - after he kills Nancy he feels sorry for himself and overwhelmed by the fear of retribution, but you couldn’t say he’s exactly seeking forgiveness - well, maybe a two-dimensional version of it.

Psychologist A:

Yes, quite right. It is all dreadfully disheartening, and still shockingly cruel.

I agree deeply about the unconsciousness of what is going on. One would expect immature adolescents to be acting a lot from their unconscious, and one of the troubles with the joint denial of events is that they are preventing themselves (and others) from growing or becoming more conscious, but instead ‘freezing’ themselves at that awful time 6 years ago.

You: “He feels sorry for himself and overwhelmed with the fear of retribution, but you couldn’t say he’s exactly seeking forgiveness—well, maybe a two-dimensional version of it. “

I see true forgiveness as a powerful phenomenon which occurs at a crucial stage of a healing process. I think it is something that occurs, that happens to one, is experienced, and is far greater than anyone’s ego.

I would think that someone who had hardly begun, or who had not at all commenced, upon this process would actually have no idea about what forgiveness might actually look or feel like, or be, in fact - let alone how to arrive at it.

Their consequent confusion might then manifest in ,as you say, wanting a two-dimensional version of it, that could be summed up as merely ‘not wanting to be seen as bad’. So perpetuating the ‘good image(s)’ of themselves, which is a gross evasion.

They certainly want not to be hated, as probably anyone does. But it is a huge chasm to actually doing something about that, and learning to behave in a way that people with conscience find acceptable.

Psychotherapist B:

I think you’re absolutely right about forgiveness - thank you for saying it so well.




Comments

You are possibly right, but then…

When they covered the dead body with the quilt, because they felt shame in the nakedness, they begged forgiveness…

When AK saw the knives at her flat, and she remembered her last scream, and blood went out of her brain, she was scared of her own doing…

Because she has always seen men as a tool, to get things done, and women as a competitior, an obstacle on her way, she was alone in her life and felt lonely without the god, and was scared.

They are not at all confused today when they talk and neither have shown the least remorse. Their comment that Meredith was my friend always sounded hollow.

The last and final authority to forgive is god and I produly ask him to always forgive the sinner but never to forget Meredith.

Who knows his ways.

Posted by chami on 11/05/13 at 10:34 AM | #

Interesting points, chami.

@ TJMK Main Posters:

Re the shame that is an aspect I had overlooked.  I think that there will definitely be a deep inner, subconscious desire for forgiveness within the soul but that neither of them are able to recognise it for what it is.  As human beings we all need forgiveness and that need or craving will be there.

However as you say they are not yet far enough on the road of processing their responsibility to be able to begin to access forgiveness.  They need to acknowledge their role in the crime first.

I think that, on the conscious level, they want the Kerchers to ‘absolve’ them.  Amanda by referring to her wish to visit the grave of her ‘friend’ and wanting to ‘share’ Meredith with her family and Raffaele by stating the Kerchers are ‘stuck’ in the Prosection’s theory and that he is ‘open to dialogue’..

We now know that he did indeed visit the grave -unspeakably arrogant - I wonder what he got from that?

If the Kerchers allow Amanda and Raffaele the opportunities to ‘dialogue’ they seek that would surely mean they are ‘forgiven’ and free of all this hassle.

Wouldn’t it?

Posted by thundering on 11/05/13 at 10:48 AM | #

I mostly agree with the psychotherapists and found their comments insightful and interesting (although if Sollecito is “slightly nearer” than Knox in approaching his own shame it must be so slight as to be insignificant - to me anyway.)

Also Pete you said as a comment in the previous piece that RS showing up in Florence could be for AK’s benefit (?) in some way. Don’t quite understand that. Who knows - he might yet spill the beans totally (slim chance I know) and say she was the killer and he was merely a reluctant love-crazed assistant in the clean-up and staging.

Posted by Odysseus on 11/05/13 at 11:19 AM | #

The picture at the top - it must be very early in the case (?) - is one of the very view I’ve ever seen where the two do look appropriately cornered and afraid. Presumably this is before “family and friends” - that’s the people who are usually neither, in any deep sense - came along and told them they could make a great case for a railroad job.

Posted by Odysseus on 11/05/13 at 11:32 AM | #

@Odysseus

Me too agree broadly with the Psychotherapist B, but not on all points.

But I liked the allegory: of Bill in Oliver Twist. I was thinking of Tess (of the d’Urbervilles). Oh, god, what a mess you have made with our lives in the name of love- and hatred.

“RS showing up in Florence could be for AK’s benefit”- please do not underestimate him- he is perhaps far more deadly than AK.

Italians usually convey a lot via emotions and I find RS terribly lacking in emotions. Just like the French, if you tie their hands, they cannot speak! Are you surprised that he has no friends?

Neither are normal person. They will not fit in the regular model of common man.

Posted by chami on 11/05/13 at 11:47 AM | #

Hi Odysseus

No I didnt say for AK’s “benefit”. Sorry for the confusion. I was observing what we several times have observed before, that he seems to try hard to flaunt himself with an eye to luring her - and then when it doesnt win her over, he goes back to being nettled and sulky toward her again.

Stay tuned tomorrow; we might see both.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/05/13 at 12:00 PM | #

Without independent corroboration, the word of a known liar and murderer is meaningless to me. Didn’t Sollecito recently express interest in visiting her grave?  For him to have done so long ago without fanfare and publicity simply isn’t credible.

@Skeptical Bystander speaks of a “grotesque appropriation of Meredith.”  What a chillingly accurate assessment.  John Kercher acted quickly and decisively to shut Knox down after her latest shameless public appeal.  I believe he would have responded differently if he detected a hint of sincerity.

I see two motives at work here. First, Knox’s narcissism makes her vulnerable to public opinion. She likes attention but cannot abide being disliked. The Kerchers have the power to change public perception, but they won’t cooperate.

Second, Knox remains preoccupied, even obsessed, with Meredith.  Her macabre music video is one example. And she can’t leave the Kerchers alone. It’s as if she demands to be embraced by them. They would “take her” to Meredith’s grave and they would embark on a healing journey together.

As for Sollecito, his disclosure seems calculated, following Knox’s interview and so close to the approaching November 6 court date. Are there photos of the visit? Now would be the time to publish them in another misguided attempt to gain public sympathy. I don’t believe him.

I almost wish the Kerchers could obtain a very public restraining order against these two preventing them from getting within a given distance from the family and Meredith’s final resting place. At a minimum, a gag order seems appropriate.

Posted by CaliDeeva on 11/05/13 at 12:31 PM | #

Hi Chami

Re: “Tess of the d’Urbervilles”. Indeed - Thomas Hardy is the foremost native author here in deepest Dorset where I live.

Max Gate, which Hardy designed and where he lived for 40+ years (also where he wrote “Tess…”) is about 15 miles away.

A film crew has been here recently for a remake of “Far from the Madding Crowd”, which will star Cary Mulligan. It’s going to have to be very good to improve on the 1967 version with the mesmerising Julie Christie imo!

Posted by Odysseus on 11/05/13 at 12:41 PM | #

@Peter

OK I see what you mean. A love-sick fool (and murderous accomplice) basically.

Posted by Odysseus on 11/05/13 at 12:55 PM | #

I am posting on behalf of Mason2 who has just rung me to report that Raffaelle Sollecito is in Florence and will be present in court tomorrow.  She is experiencing a technical difficulty and cannot access her TJMK account this evening.

Posted by cicerodiello on 11/05/13 at 01:22 PM | #

Thanks a lot cicerodiello

We did get an email from Mason2 saying its a great hotel but no wifi that works. We know she can do a lot with her phone, and she has full press access at the Palace of Justice which gets her into places where connecting is not a problem. For the next 1-2 days we here in the US will be getting up long before its light.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/05/13 at 03:10 PM | #

Knox supporter “Nigel Scott” of London who writes for Ground Report has posted a picture of Meredith’s grave site on his Twitter feed. The implication is that he is the RS ‘friend’ who accompanied him to the grave and took the picture.

I sent him a request asking to confirm one way or the other. Will let everyone know if he responds, though like his ‘friend’ Sollecito, I doubt he has the courage. The timing of this report suggests that many of the Knox and Sollecito camp share the same disorder as their objects of adoration.

Posted by Ergon on 11/05/13 at 03:15 PM | #

@Ergon

It is very convenient time to ask for forgiveness.

That is what is called a good counsel.

Posted by chami on 11/05/13 at 03:20 PM | #

Nigel Scott seems to me demented and quite possibly dangerous, he is so fanatically for Knox. He does the most virulent ad hominem posts on Ground Report, and if he tries to enter Italy I’d regard him as a danger they should keep tabs on.

Here is a post by Kermit showing what a mess his mental picture is. We emailed the mayor & council and the email we got back essentially said “he’s a fruitloop, but this is democracy, what can we do?”

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/our_call_to_editors_of_a_london_magazine_to_check_facts_before_propaga/

Posted by Peter Quennell on 11/05/13 at 03:33 PM | #

It doesn’t surprise me he’s a fruitloop if he’s a local councillor in Haringey - that’s where all the self-important and totally unqualified fruitloops end up. Trust me, they were my local council when I lived in London.

Posted by Odysseus on 11/05/13 at 04:21 PM | #

it seems that there is agreement between all three in the post above - the psychologists and Skeptical Bystander. That there cannot be true forgiveness until there is an admission of wrong-doing, - and then appropriate remorse is shown.

That, too, perpetrators may wish to be relieved of the burdens that guilt may place upon them, and may be making a plea for this…but there can be absolutely no fast tracking of the process - there is no ‘jump to end’ option.

I found a quote from C.G.Jung that seems relevant :

” But what if I should discover that the least among them all, the poorest of all the beggars, the most impudent of all the offenders, the very enemy himself—that these are within me, and that I myself stand in need of the alms of my own kindness—that I myself am the enemy who must be loved—what then? ...we… condemn and rage against ourselves. We hide it from the world; we refuse to admit ever having met this least among the lowly in ourselves.”

― C.G. Jung, Memories, Dreams, Reflections”

It is possible to have shame, and for it to reside in the unconscious, while at the same time disallowing any awareness of the shame into our conscious mind.

Babies can feel shame (without ‘knowing’ what it is) - it is very basic. We grow when we become aware of what makes us ashamed. It is to do with maturity, as ‘B’ says.

But for such persons repressing and not acknowledging great shame, there will be a disconnect, a dichotomy between the unconscious and conscious mind. A mask may be presented to the world that might appear confident, but would likely be entirely superficial. At the very least, this would feel distinctly uncomfortable, and leave no peace of mind.

So, yes, persons like this would certainly want things to be changed and for their lives to be different…but this is a far cry from true forgiveness.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 11/05/13 at 05:06 PM | #

Re Nigel Scott: he seems devoid of logical ability.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 11/05/13 at 05:08 PM | #

The only logical conclusion is that we regard these things as people. They are not human at all or even deranged members of the human race since they do not ascribe to the norms that make up society.

Consider Michelle Moore and her failure of a husband and the viciousness to which they ascribe. Nigel Scott and a few others who we all know about. Human waste all of them.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 11/05/13 at 05:18 PM | #

Dear Peter, if there isn’t the DNA of Meredith on the knife, this is not a good news for us. What do you think?

********

Hi Matteo.. Please read this post directly below; it explains that Meredith’s DNA was confirmed by Staefanoni, nobody is arguing about that, just sayting in the NEW test that was only Knox’s. So there was one trace of Meredith and two of Knox.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/why_dna_test_results_6_november_may_leave/

Pete.

Posted by Matteo_65 on 11/05/13 at 06:11 PM | #

I very much doubt they subconsciously are ‘seeking forgiveness’; possibly because we tend to want, as a reflection of our own innate goodness, to try to forgive?

If what other psychologists speculate is true, that these two suffer from some sort of sociopathic disorder, would this not be a narcisstic display, wanting not to be forgiven, but to be believed, to have others validate what they think, they did nothing wrong?

In some twisted way, they want the court to absolve them too?

Shame on these two, and the person who enabled Raffaele Sollecito by taking him to Meredith’s grave and posting her site picture. Ghouls!

Posted by Ergon on 11/05/13 at 06:18 PM | #

@SeekingUnderstanding

Thank you for the quote from Jung. I remember reading “Memories, Dreams,  Reflections” when I was about 20 and it changed my life in many ways. Great man.

These quote from Jung also seem relevant and inspirational (to me anyway!):

“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will control your life and you will call it fate”.

(AK and RS no doubt do ascribe their predicament to fate. As you say,  nothing will change on that front until they own their wrong-doing and feel genuine remorse. It’s their choice, pure and simple).

“Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart. Who looks outside, dreams. Who looks inside, awakens.”

Posted by Odysseus on 11/05/13 at 06:34 PM | #

@ Matteo

Don’t buy into the Knox misinformation line plus the outright lies they spew for financial gain. It has already been decided by the defense that Merediths DNA is on the knife. That is why the only recourse they had was to claim contamination.

Contamination is of course laughable since the science has taken several leaps forward so contamination no longer exists because of course it didn’t to begin with.  Even then there is a mountain of information and facts which is also conclusive and thereby proof of guilt..

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 11/05/13 at 06:36 PM | #

@Odysseus,

Lovely quotes, too. Yes, this was a book that affected me greatly when young. I’ve re-bought it when older.

I haven’t seen any indication that the Two are seeking forgiveness. They seem to be seeking to be absolved, (as SkBy said)..excused from being accountable.

They may need forgiveness, but that is something else.  If they really desire it, they need to make a start on a long, long journey.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 11/05/13 at 07:06 PM | #

Nigel Scott seems to think that one day Knox will fall into his arms, thanking him for his ‘support’, not gonna happen Nige, ever.

Posted by Urbanist on 11/05/13 at 07:37 PM | #

Only a few more hours till deliberations begin in Florence, so I’ll just update on Nigel Scott, who posted Meredith’s grave marker picture on Twitter, and by implication, was the one who took Raffaele Sollecito to visit her grave. No, he didn’t respond to my request for comment, but he is indeed, a frootloop.

https://twitter.com/gronff/status/397493815960805376
Nigel Scott‏@gronff 
“I have had my kitchen knife tested for DNA. It has mine but not Meredith’s so I guess that makes me a suspect.”

Here he is posting the same ‘joke’ as user Erasmus44 on Bruce’s forum.
http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=120527#p120527

Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum
Post by erasmus44 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:03 pm
“Because I have memory problems, I had a knife in my kitchen drawer tested recently. It turned out to have my DNA on it but no DNA of MK. So I guess that means that it is likely that I was responsible for this crime.”

And here he is, claiming to be a lawyer who had Alan Dershowitz as his law professor!
http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=120580#p120580
O.J. Simpson Case - Dershowitz Observations
Post by erasmus44 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:38 pm

I just attended my 45th law school reunion and there was an extensive “conversation with Alan Dershowitz” - my criminal law professor 47 years ago and a brilliant lawyer and author. He made a very persuasive case that certain evidence (a “bloody” sock) in the O. J. Simpson case was cleared planted by the police and then asked the following question to the audience and requested a show of hands - “If you knew the police planted evidence but were convinced the defendant was guilty, would you vote to convict or acquit?” I thought I saw him started to raise his hand for “convict” but I may very well be mistaken. Many in the audience (lawyers and spouses) raised their hands for “acquit” - I really couldn’t decide. His case that the evidence was planted was very, very persuasive and disturbing to me.
He also discussed the Von Bulow case and again made a very persuasive argument that the forensic evidence demonstrated innocence.
All in all, a fascinating discussion.
On the acquit or convict issue, I am still uncertain. Perhaps because of my background, I have generally assumed that the authorities would have no incentive to concoct evidence or lie in court but it is increasingly clear that I am hopelessly naïve.”

Local Haringey councilor and studied at Harvard School, of Law? Who’d a thunk it? smile

Posted by Ergon on 11/05/13 at 07:39 PM | #

@Ergon
Hmmmm obviously an idiot who has padded his resume. Goes without saying Harvard law school indeed!??? Maybe he was there with Steve Moore being a security guard and bothering the students.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 11/05/13 at 08:01 PM | #

Remorse…I think that they have no remorse.

Posted by aethelred23 on 11/05/13 at 09:16 PM | #

Alan Dershowitz “He joined the faculty of Harvard Law School as an assistant professor in 1964, and was made a full professor in 1967 at the age of 28, at that time the youngest full professor of law in the school’s history.” Wikipedia

2013 - 47 = 1966 so I guess it’s possible but…

No mention of Harvard Law School attendance in 1966 in the Nigel Scott autobiography here:
http://www.minutes.haringey.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=1223

Posted by believing on 11/06/13 at 01:04 AM | #

@aethelred
yes, there has been no indication of remorse in the public shows. At the very least, it is grossly insensitive to be mentioning poor Meredith’s grave.
It is hard to believe that they don’t know how exceedingly hurtful it must be.

There are a few visual indicators when the glimmers of shame reach the consciousness - a tendency to colour or blush, hesitancy in speech, awkwardness…

With genuine remorse there is more than anything an unmistakeable attitude which is contrite. I have never seen this feigned. i believe humans are hard-wired to recognise genuine contriteness in each other. After all, our survival may depend upon it.
Every child knows how important it is to say ‘Sorry’, (and mean it). There is something very wrong when they cannot.

Hoping for justice….

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 11/06/13 at 05:48 AM | #

I do not consider Knox to have any feelings of remorse towards Meredith whatsoever.  Her televised interview by Lorraine Kelly showed her facial expression every time poor Meredith was mentioned, and she scowled each time.  Despite the fact that Knox murdered Meredith, she still despises her.  Given that she is puerile and cruel, I think her sole reason for mentioning visiting Meredith’s grave is because she knows the Kerchers do not want her to go there, and her threats to do just that causes them additional grief and anguish.  I think Knox is being sadistic.

As far as Nigel Scott is concerned, he holds a lowly position in a North London borough.  He is a sad liberal-leftie.  I would be shocked if his claims to have studied at Harvard were true!  I wonder how this could be verified?  It would be good to prove him as a liar!

Posted by MHILL4 on 11/06/13 at 08:31 AM | #

@MHILL4
yes, in the interviews there were fleeting micro expressions (i.e. uncontrollable) of lop-sided ‘contempt’ smirks every time.
AK’s public appearances were ill-advised.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 11/06/13 at 08:40 AM | #

The ‘mentioning of the grave’ reminded me of some tactless remarks from Edda very early on in the case about Meredith’s sex life.

Then there was Curt saying that they will not approach the Kerchers until they accept that
Amanda had nothing to do with Meredith’s murder.

It looks like Amanda’s behaviour is a reflection of her parents.

I fear that there will not be any remorse from that family. This family is poison.

I also think the family are being very short-sighted about Amanda’s coping skills. She has obviously been affected by this and clearly shows that she is stressed. She needs to get counselling or she may resort to self-harm or worse suicide.

Posted by jhansigirl on 11/06/13 at 04:26 PM | #

Hi, believing. Erasmus44 is the guy claiming to be the Harvard lawyer, Nigel Scott the Haringey Councillor. Both of them made the same joke in poor taste about “testing their kitchen knife for Meredith’s DNA” at the same time as Nigel released the photo of Meredith’s grave. Erasmus, if he is indeed of Harvard Law, and not the same as Nigel Scott, would know how to use quotation marks to indicate he is copying the joke, but then, Harvard lawyers are not immune to charges of plagiarism.

Erasmus denies he is Nigel Scott, just as other prolific members deny they aren’t Chris Mellas or other Knox family members. I prefer to believe they are, though we will never know for sure, of course. But I won’t accept their word, sorry.

And Erasmus claiming to have been a student of Alan Dershowitz? It’s play on one of our PMF members, and not really believable.

Posted by Ergon on 11/08/13 at 12:06 AM | #


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