Thursday, January 02, 2014

“Popular Forensic Crime Writer Says AK Is Innocent” But Misconstrues Evidence Pointing To Guilt

Posted by FinnMacCool



That headline above is from a KOMONews report on Patricia Cornwell’s take on the case about seven weeks ago.

On her promotional tour for her latest novel (see the video above) Patricia Cornwell made the following comments about the pursuit of truth: “If you stumble upon a truth, I don’t know what case it is, maybe this is the old journalist in me, I feel I am obligated to say something about it…”

Many of us can sympathize with those words, particularly readers of a website devoted to securing justice for a young woman who was brutally murdered in 2007. Cornwell went on to make reference to this very case, bringing some of her own experience to bear as regards time of death:

One of the things that has frustrated me about [the Meredith Kercher case], they’ve made a great big deal about the victim’s stomach contents and how they placed the death at a certain time because her food had not really digested all that much.

It’s like, ‘Hello, when you go into flight or fight mode, your digestion either shuts down completely or at least it slows, because all the blood is going to your extremities so you can defend yourself or run.’ And if somebody is being assaulted, their digestion quits.

I’ve seen it in the morgue where somebody who ate 8-10 hours earlier - their food is exactly as they swallowed it.

Cornwell may be a talented writer, but she shows herself here to be a less than careful reader, because the point she makes here supports the prosecution case, and it undermines that of the defense.

It was of course the Knox/Sollecito defense teams who claimed that the victim’s stomach contents placed her death at an earlier time (to a point close to when their clients still had an alibi), while the prosecution successfully argued along the same lines as Patricia Cornwell, that stomach contents cannot be used to establish time of death with such precision.

Here is the way Knox herself describes the defense position in her memoir Waiting To Be Heard:

Meredith had been murdered by 10 P.M., based on her stomach contents, but the prosecutors invented a scenario in which Meredith was home alone between 9:30 P.M. and 11:30 P.M. According to their argument, the sphincter between the stomach and the small intestine tightens at the moment of trauma, and digestion temporarily stops. (WTBH: 222)

In other words, Patricia Cornwell’s expertise in this area leads her to agree with the prosecution’s argument, and undermines the case of the defense. Nevertheless, Cornwell claims to have followed the case closely, and to be of the opinion that Knox and Sollecito are innocent, with Rudy Guede the lone sexual predator.

The PR firm hired by Amanda Knox’s family (Gogarty-Marriott) will be pleased that such a high profile commentator has reached that conclusion, but they will also be hoping that people just read the headline quoted above, without looking too closely at the contradictory substance of Cornwell’s remarks.

Courts of law look at evidence; courts of public opinion listen to soundbites.

In the Meredith Kercher case, a succession of courts (with one annulled exception to date) have found, just as Patricia Cornwell’s experience suggests, that the bulk of the evidence in this case supports a guilty verdict for all three defendants.
 
Patricia Cornwell claims to care about truth and justice, and to support the rights of victims to have their stories told. It would be an honorable move on her part, then, to correct the impression given by her recent interview that her expertise supports the defense case rather than that of the prosecution. As Cornwell herself puts it:

The truth should never be hidden, particularly in heinous crimes. It’s never too late for it to come out even if we can’t prosecute anybody for it any more. We owe it to those who were brutalized, or assassinated, to tell the true story about what really happened.

She is of course far from the first expert to be misled by cherrypicked “facts”. See for example here.




Comments

Latest update by journalist Andrea Vogt,

” How did U.S. authorities respond to #amandaknox arrest in 2007? Read for yourself in docs avail only here:”

http://thefreelancedesk.com/front_featured/amanda-knox-appeal-2/

Posted by True North on 01/02/14 at 02:36 PM | #

What a strange - and strangely obnoxious - woman.

God save us from blithering idiots who say “hello?” at every opportunity, as if everyone else is asleep and they alone have the key to understanding. There’s clearly more than a bit of Obknoxious in her make-up. (Thus the visceral support no doubt.) I don’t know why she says hello, I say goodbye.

As usual with projection, the finger that is used to point is the finger pointing right back at YOU, Ms Cornwell.

***

Apparently, she’s an American pot-boiler scribbler of no literary merit whatsoever.

Posted by Odysseus on 01/02/14 at 02:52 PM | #

Being a “popular writer” like Cornwell or Preston, or “famous FBI profiler” like Douglas, or “false confession” specialist like Kassin, does not prevent your “reputation” from being savaged, if you turn out to be “wrong”, just saying smile

Posted by Ergon on 01/02/14 at 03:17 PM | #

Good grief, Patricia Cornwell.  She’s the same idiot who wrote a whole book arguing that Walter Sickert was Jack the Ripper, even though Sickert was in France during 4 of the 5 murders. 

Hope she agrees to a debate with someone genuinely knowledgeable about the case.

Posted by Ceylon on 01/02/14 at 03:43 PM | #

Thanks Odysseus.

I don’t have any opinion on her Ripper stuff - that whole thing passed me by - but I have read and enjoyed a couple of her Kay Scarpetta novels. Also, what she says about the forensics is not wrong at all.

She is exactly right on that, but where she is misinformed is about the case itself. Her argument supports the prosecution case, not the defense.

Cornwell also speaks with passion about speaking the truth, however late and however uncomfortable, on behalf of the victims. She is right about that too: victims deserve the truth.

If she is serious about that, and it wasn’t just a PR line to drum up interest in her latest book, then she might be honest and courageous enough now to speak the truth on behalf of Meredith Kercher.

Posted by FinnMacCool on 01/02/14 at 05:49 PM | #

Victims of the kind of attack that led to Meredith’s death frequently regurgitate their stomach contents.

Such was the case with Meredith. See Massei Translation p. 115:

“In the autopsy, Dr. Lalli noted the following: “... oesophagus containing a fragment apparently a piece of mushroom (page 46 [of Lalli report])....”

These claims were essentially repeated at the hearing on April 3, 2009 (see pages 36 and following the hearing transcripts, April 3, 2009) in which the presence of a fragment of mushroom in the opening of the lower stretch of oesophagus was confirmed, thus in a phase of non-digestion;…”

Meredith may well have regurgitated, not merely into her oesophagus, but also out to the exterior and the evidence of this could have been cleared away by her killers in their later clean-up.

Therefore disputes regarding Meredith’s time of death, based on the subject of the stomach contents found at her autopsy seem to be futile, as politely indicated elsewhere in the Massei Report e.g. pp. 149 & 179.

Posted by Cardiol MD on 01/02/14 at 06:30 PM | #

Finn:

Your cool “reasoning” approach here, especially perfected over 5 years by The Machine, has proved highly effective, both in highlighting “silver bullets” like the wide possibility for time of death, and in quietening or turning around commentators who stuck their necks out too far.

We’d sure welcome more posts. Here’s betting there is going to be another flood of post-verdict commentaries cherrypicking 2-3 pieces of evidence and getting them wrong and then on that basis building a whole castle of cards.

***

Patricia Cornwell used her wrong take on the time of death to point to Guede as the killer alone. But nobody - nobody - in Italy has ever accepted and argued successfully that Rudy Guede acted alone.

That includes the Knox and Sollecito defenses - this is why they wheeled out the disastrous witnesses Alessi and Aviello at the annulled Hellmann appeal. Read all the many posts here:

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C720/

Note especially the positions of the Supreme Court and the Florence prosecution on why the lone wolf theory just wont fly. Talking of not flying, might “dead parrot” for that group of posts work equally well?

Posted by Peter Quennell on 01/02/14 at 06:55 PM | #

Re TOD. Every measurement is associated with some error.

For example

the age of the universe is 13.798±0.037 billion years

mass of an electron is 9.109 382 91(40) x 10^-31 kg

The stuff after the +/- sign or within the parenthesis represents the uncertainty of the measurement. You see that the age of the universe is uncertain by about 37 million years.

The determination of the time of death (ToD) by using stomach content state of digestion is a very very poor technique. The rate of digestion is not constant and also varies for individuals. Also, the nature of the food also plays a role. Such measurements are invariably associated with large errors.

But then the determination of ToD by measurement of body temperature is also inaccurate (but perhaps better than using stomach contents).

Best way to determine the ToD is by other evidences.

Posted by chami on 01/02/14 at 10:24 PM | #

I guess we shoud keep in mind that Patricia Cornwell writes *fiction* and is no expert in forensics; according to Wikipedia, she is also a drunk driver, suffers from bipolar disorder, and has stated that her brain is “wired differently”—yep, I guess that’s true, hon, I rest my case.

Posted by Bjorn on 01/02/14 at 10:59 PM | #

As far as her “Jack the Ripper” book goes, lots of writers have written books arguing that a particular person is Jack the Ripper, and there’s about a dozen men who pop up in discussions of the case over and over. 

At this late date, I don’t think enough evidence exists to prove who the Ripper was, even if he’s already been correctly identified.  It takes really lunacy to write a whole book arguing Jack the Ripper was a guy who actually had an alibi for most of the murders. 

I have no idea who Jack the Ripper was, but he certainly wasn’t Walter Sickert. And Cornwell’s response to criticism of her book has been classic Knoxophile—to ignore evidence that doesn’t support her opinion and trash her critics.

Posted by Ceylon on 01/02/14 at 11:50 PM | #

I’m sure you’re right about Jack the Ripper, Ceylon - in fact I can guarantee you’re right about Walter Sickert! But anyone writing a Ripper book is just trying to sell books, and by the scale of the controversy it would seem like that plan worked.

Here’s the funny thing though - Cornwell is right about the forensics. What she is saying supports exactly what Cardiol and Chami have said in this thread (and as Cardiol points out, exactly what Massei ruled in finding for guilt at the first level). She just hasn’t read the case well enough to realise that she is arguing the prosecution’s case, not that of the defense.

Posted by FinnMacCool on 01/03/14 at 03:42 AM | #

Hi Finn

Yes, I see what you mean about her unwittingly making the prosecution case.

Posted by Odysseus on 01/03/14 at 06:15 AM | #

Stomach contents are no help, because nobody knows the time of Meredith’s last meal, even if her digestion had not been interrupted by trauma.

Robyn Butterworth said they ate pizza around 6pm but Amy Frost said the meal was between 5:30 and 6pm, while Sophie Purton said they ate about an hour before Meredith departed for home, meaning possibly 7:45 or 8pm when they finished dessert.

Meredith ate only part of her pizza, and may have eaten again when she got to the cottage to account for the mushroom found in her esophagus.

Summary of Massei report on Wiki says TOD is around ten minutes on either side of 10:50pm, so that could make it as late as 11pm, or maybe 10:30.

In John Kercher’s book he said (p.79) that Meredith spoke to Amy Frost as she was leaving the girls’ flat after their pizza and apple crumble evening:

Meredith said to Amy: ” ‘See you in the morning at ten o’clock.’ Then she came running back and jokingly added: ‘I mean ten thirty!’, meaning that she would probably be late.”

Although these last words to friend Amy would of course not hold up in court, is it possible that Meredith spoke some kind of a prophecy of her last time alive which would be sometime around 10:30 ?

Posted by Hopeful on 01/03/14 at 12:56 PM | #

Change of court dates:

“The next court dates are Jan 9, 16 and 20th.
The calendar is subject to change, but this is how it stands as of today.”

Source: Andrea Vogt

Posted by thundering on 01/03/14 at 03:02 PM | #

The other day, just before Christmas, I received a nasty blog from no lesser person than that famous crime fighter Steve Moore. This was in response to something I had written concerning the mental capabilities of his wife Michelle and Mr Moore’s past history such as it is (OK I admit I was not very complementary.)

Now I have never made the slightest attempt to disguise who I am. My web page is there for all to see as is my Facebook profile. Steve Moore obviously decided to check up on me and checked to see who I was, in particular the book I have written concerning my childhood on boys service in the British Army. His response was interesting since the personal creation of anything original, no matter whether it’s good or bad is, in the attempt of creation, important as of itself. Of course the Knox groupies have never created anything at all which makes them unbiased, since they hate all creative persons equally.

This does not take into consideration Patricia Cornwell who obviously believes that since she writes crime novels she knows everything about crime. This is a vast mistake since she is only another silly person who fudges the facts to make them fit.

As to Steve Moore I was indeed amazed that with only the very slightest checking he came up with a full profile of my life from birth up to today which included his moronic empty threats concerning reporting me to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. This of course is laughable since I have only voiced an opinion, but since it is contrary to his he must feel threatened, this obviously and also, is the response to anyone of the Knox groupies who respond with ridicule, which is all they have of course. They never examine the facts but just zero in on some minor detail and run with that. After all, just like Patricia Cornwell, is all they have.

The point is that Steve Moore, just like Patricia Cornwell and the other Knox groupies, will take the smallest piece of evidence and weave an entire scenario around the barest facts. They use suppositions, guess work, conspiracy theories, and out and out lies to make their theories fit, and if that does not work they will use ridicule. Anything but the examination of the complete evidence.

I did respond of course but (Of Course) my comment was instantly eradicated. It is indeed sad that people of such low intelligence exist at all. People who will take the slightest info and come up with the full facts of a persons life, all of them wrong.

The point being (and as I pointed out at the time) Knox will never be free because for the rest of her life she will always be known as the person who murdered Meredith and she, just like Jody Arias, Casey Anthony and Karla Homolka will always be judged guilty by the vast majority. I wonder where she will be in five years?

It’s nice though to have my suspicions confirmed, in that dear Steve and his lovely wife lived down to my expectations.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 01/03/14 at 03:38 PM | #

Hi Grahame

Quite a compliment to you to have rattled his cage.

It seems the tension is building and they are beginning to lose the plot! As SeekingUnderstanding suggested in a recent post, in-fighting might be expected to break out at any time. Then ritual hari-kiri? (We can dream.)

Posted by Odysseus on 01/03/14 at 05:40 PM | #

Hey, Grahame, no worries, the Knox groupies are now sweating bullets in anticipation of their idol going (again) to prison.

Like yourself, I also think Knox and Sollecito are guilty as hell, but the idiotic Steve Moore & his buddies don’t know who I am and that tickles me pink, I know what they’re capable of (e.g., they’re capable of reporting me to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, my God, I’m terrified of horses).

As far as my anonymity goes, I had the privilege early on to have (anonymous) idiots do research on my (real) identity, and had to spend more time on that than I did on the original issue (true, I attacked the president of a country—I am not Scandinavian—in an unsolicited article, other people did , too, and I remember the moron waving the journal in question in front of TV cameras red as a lobster, let’s just say I was worried about my safety, not the case here because this guy is not anonymous, either).

So, Steve, baby (can I call you “baby”?), looks like you’re cracking, but imagine what could happen if Sollecito suddenly decides to squeal (Signor Giudice, con questa mia lettera voglio dire la verita ...) wink

Posted by Bjorn on 01/03/14 at 07:11 PM | #

for Ceylon and others interested in the Jack the Ripper case of 1888:

I want to highly recommend the work of Michelle Diebold in her book “Sex, Lies, and Handwriting” pub. by FREE PRESS (Simon & Schuster) c.2006

Chapter 19 in this book deals with the case and is titled “Letter From Hell”.  She solved the case for me with her solid analysis. Don’t come to a conclusion without reading this.

Dan D

Posted by DDPT on 01/03/14 at 08:25 PM | #

Sex Lies And Handwriting!!!??? My my, sounds like Knox all over considering her past history and she’s taking creative writing as well. But I will give her an B+ for that.

Seriously I’m surprised she hasn’t written (sorry co-authored) a children’s book although the title escapes me.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 01/03/14 at 09:00 PM | #

Oh Yes! One observation that I forgot to mention which was the fact that Steve Moore (crime fighter extraordinaire) was not pissed off at me for questioning his wife’s sanity, far from it since he never mentioned it in his tirade. But, and this is telling, he was angry with me for having the temerity to question his resume. Strange that he never came to his wife’s defense but that tells me a lot about him and his thought processes few though they obviously are.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 01/03/14 at 11:56 PM | #

Hi Grahame

No-one has ever seen Steve Moore’s full resume. Rather than simply put it out, he has blown a lot of smoke about it, making many claims about past heroics and successes which we have good reason to believe are exaggerated or made up.

He perpetually seems iffy about his wife, not least in a book he wrote, which may be why she tries so hard, going back to when he was surrounded with pretty young college students at Pepperdine University when he was a security employee there.

Michelle Moore once leaped in to try to support him in not putting out his resume. Read how the highly effective statement analyst Peter Hyatt showed she fell far short in this - in fact, dug both of them in deeper.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/scientific_statement_analysis_5_analysis_of_steve_and_or_michelle_moor/

Posted by Peter Quennell on 01/04/14 at 09:15 AM | #

Nice work Bjorn. Good satire.

You might get a kick out of the analysis linked to just above, which about 2/3 of the way through enters into complete farce.

Many people find Steve and Michelle Moore unwittingly funny. The PMF boards laugh at them all the time. Also see this:

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/scientific_statement_analysis_3_claims_made_by_steve_moore_about_the_i/

The Carabinieri studied them after Michelle Moore lunged at Dr Mignini and considered charging them then though they are both seen as a few bricks short of a wall.

If they are charged for their numerous false claims of crimes by Italians it is more likely to be by the Florence prosecutor general.

In such an event Steve Moore’s frequent reference to gun use and illegal investigations of people like Grahame Rhodes could have the FBI disowning him.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 01/04/14 at 09:31 AM | #

I ordered the book ‘Sex lies and Hand Writing’ since I am curious as to how that sets up. It would be interesting to examine Knox’s written statements at the time of her arrest. I’m obviously no expert, but curiosity has a way of defining one. So it goes with the inexhaustible desire to accumulate knowledge rather than just wafting through life.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 01/04/14 at 09:47 AM | #

Hi Grahame

I read some chapters of the Kindle version last night and appreciate DDPT putting us onto this.

Knox’s writings do seem really ripe for handwriting analysis - Peter Hyatt’s similar statement analysis of Knox’s writings showed they did her no favors.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/scientific_statement_analysis_analysis_of_amanda_knoxs_email_to_seatt/

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/scientific_statement_analysis_2_knoxs_handwritten_note/

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/scientific_statement_analysis_4_amanda_knoxs_statement_to_the_appeal_c/

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/a_more_detailed_analysis_of_knoxs_statement_6_november_2007_points_eve/

Posted by Peter Quennell on 01/04/14 at 10:31 AM | #

I suppose Sollecito is back in Italy in time for his Defence arguments this coming Thursday.  Will he then hop back to the Caribbean? 

How many holidays does one take in two months?  Beaches become dull after a while.

The family does seem to have assets of its own so he could well be able to afford to hang out on an island dabbling in IT.  Some do.

Posted by thundering on 01/04/14 at 11:28 AM | #

I’ve sent Maria Cantwell and her press office some tweets making her aware that the official court documents and court testimony are available online at the wiki website. If anybody is on Twitter, please retweet my tweets. The more retweets there are, the more she will sit up and take notice. Thanks.

Posted by The Machine on 01/04/14 at 11:54 AM | #

One of the many things I find lovely about this site, apart from the defense of Meredith and her family, is the ongoing intellectual desire for knowledge, be it this case or anything really. People who contribute here are obviously interested in the sciences and the arts and the continuous desire to be informed no matter what the subject may be.

There is a correlation here of wanting to be better educated on every level and I find it uplifting and optimistic that there are people still around who do not converse by text messaging for example, but actually want to engage in face to face conversations. Sadly I’m afraid that this is a dieing art.

For an egotistical example on my part, whenever I wanted to fix some minor dispute between any of my crew I would get them into the office face to face and have it out there and then. It always worked.

Nowadays though people email or telephone or fax or twitter, anything that can be ignored rather than face to face confrontations. That is why such none entities such as Steve Moore, Micheal Heavey, Bruce Fischer and associated defectives such as Ground Report will hide behind threats and ridicule.

I’m looking forward to examining the new book and although I read in full the analysis of Knox scribblings I feel a more basic delving into her twisting the fact would be helpful, if for no other reason than the increasing amount of personal knowledge.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 01/04/14 at 11:54 AM | #

Hi Machine
That is not to say that I don’t find twitter and or any other mean of communication helpful because any form of communication is better than silence. My point was more can be accomplished when people find it impossible to ignore you.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 01/04/14 at 12:02 PM | #

Hi Grahame,

A Twitter storm is going to hit both sides of the Atlantic on 20 January. It only takes a few moments to send a tweet. Everyone can make a difference.

Posted by The Machine on 01/04/14 at 12:26 PM | #

I’m ready with my twitterer TM…tell me where to go and I’ll be there.

Posted by Smacker on 01/04/14 at 12:41 PM | #

There will be a post about it on TJMK. I’ve also sent tweets to David Cameron, William Hague and Nick Clegg. These politicians need to know the truth about the evidence. It’s time to fully expose the FOA PR version of events for what it is - a pack of lies.

Posted by The Machine on 01/04/14 at 12:50 PM | #

I support The Machine’s Twitter Storm idea. 

The more of us that participate the more people will be reached and the better the message is conveyed.

For too long the evidence and reasoning of the courts has been drowned out by the Knox PR. 

We really need to bombard key UK figures as well as those in the US.  I am not sure how much they are aware of the case and I suspect they have only taken in what has been presented in the media.

It does not take long to tweet as Machine says and isn’t that why we are here - to give Meredith a voice and fight for justice?

Posted by thundering on 01/04/14 at 12:58 PM | #

All,

I’ve just posted this on PMF:
I’ve sent a couple of “donate a tweet” on Twitter (or twatter, as I seemingly insist on calling it) - requesting retweets with the wiki link in - please support amd see if we can spread the greater knowledge for Meredith.

Thanks all!

P.s. my name on Twitter is @RIPMeredithTWO

Grahame- I’ve been utterly staggered at the mentality behind the attack on you. I remember another poster reporting threats to his/her family some time back. How did Meredith end up with a room mate who killed her and attracts such supporters? I don’t know what else to say. You’re in my thoughts.

Posted by TruthWillOut on 01/04/14 at 02:05 PM | #

Thanks DDPT, I’ve put a hold on Sex Lies and Handwriting at the library.  I looked up Tumblety in “The Complete Jack the Ripper” and he sounds like a plausible suspect, although there apparently wasn’t much evidence against him.  The fact that he left England right after Mary Kelly’s murder is interesting.

Posted by Ceylon on 01/04/14 at 02:55 PM | #

The main page of the wiki website has now been accessed more than 100,000 times. Please keep tweeting and retweeting.

Posted by The Machine on 01/04/14 at 03:32 PM | #

This is great and the response is wonderful. Never stop Never Stop.

However I wish to share with you an interesting phenomena. Since I am a student of philosophy and psychotherapy this interesting anecdote surfaced during discussions concerning peoples lives, Knox being an interesting case comes up quite often in particular those she is surrounded by. Jody Arias is a case as well.

This case though concerns a woman who for reasons of financial security chose to stay with her abusive husband who after six weeks of marriage shared her with his friends while he watched and she cried. Later on he became her de facto pimp because she was very beautiful, highly intelligent and self educated and therefore could attract others in a wife swapping situation which she did not partake in. She stayed with him through fear of being abandoned
(Note that it’s never called husband swapping) Over the years she tried many times to get a divorce and get away but always backed out and put up with the physical abuse.

About six years ago it was pointed out to her that she had never had the guts to even try to
leave because she had no ‘Backbone’ and no ‘Spine’ and was a coward even though she had abused herself by cutting herself and abusing alcohol for most of her life.

Almost instantly after she was confronted with this truth she became incurably sick with a degenerative spine disorder. (Note the correlation.) The result being that she will end up completely bed ridden and unable to fend for herself. Her abusive husband will not take care of her neither will her two sons since they all agreed that she should have left years ago but didn’t have the ‘Spine’ or ‘Backbone’

The point of the discussion therefore was how much of a coincidence was this and how much of it was brought about by guilt and sorrow. Ergo: she had insufficient ‘Backbone’ or not enough ‘Spine’ or fortitude to leave her abusive husband even though she was very clever, beautiful, and could have made a very successful life for herself.

If I am right in this hypothesis then no matter what the outcome Knox is finished anyway, because the same thing applies. She will never be anything but the inmate of a prison even if it is the prison of her own making.

Your thoughts on this would be helpful because we have just started to scratch the surface of why an wherefore. My belief is that, for example, there are many supposed old wives tales that have turned out to be true. This, in the fact that the mind controls the physical body and physical well being, is one of them.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 01/04/14 at 04:28 PM | #

@ Grahame

The way we think about ourselves, our self-esteem etc, is definitely implicated in “dis-ease”. George Groddeck’s “The Book of the It” published in 1923 explored this and I’m sure many others have written on the subject since then. Psychosomatic medicine is well established nowadays.

As to the possibility of some diseases being a direct reflection of the way that a person is perceived, and explicitly labelled, by others (e.g. a spine disorder that results from being called “spineless” ), I don’t know. It would be a very cruel fate if true. It’s interesting though - if it could be rigorously shown to be the case, even in just some instances, it might make us all a bit less hasty to cast judgement on others.

Mind and body really aren’t separate in any meaningful way. It’s just that we’ve learnt to think they are due to the anachronistic dualism originating with Descartes - still reflected today in the academic division between Psychology and Physical Medicine.

Posted by Odysseus on 01/04/14 at 05:38 PM | #

Hi Odysseus
Yes I totally agree. When this was first promulgated in discussion it received a similar response. The real question that came out was the question of percentage (psychosomaticism not-with standing) as to how much is brought about by the realization of failure, at least in this particular case, or is it just a coincidence? but because of the time line I believe there is something else going on here of which we are not aware. Henceforth I am very curious to find out because it would open up a very large undiscovered window into the workings of the psychological vis the physical. I will stay with this because it’s fascinating. However I am always cautious since I remember full well the story of the ‘phlogiston’ chemists. Thank you for your recommendation of George Groddeck’s book by the way. I’m afraid I spend too much time in the local library when I should be doing other things so thank you once more. It just occurred to me and as an addendum this obviously applies to Knox.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 01/04/14 at 07:59 PM | #

Don’t mean to sound too strange, but I used to read a lot about near-death experiences, and was reasonably familiar with a small portion of Edgar Cayce’s readings, or their analysis, rather. It seems that at the moment of physical death, our soul is guided by other forces, and our life intensely flashes before our eyes in what we perceive to be barely an instant (in a way it makes sense, time is but a silly trick the physical world plays on us). In that rich instant our soul perceives the pain, joy, etc. that we created in the people we interacted with, as well as the pain, joy, etc. we ourselves felt (a formidable, multi-dimensional experience that cannot be described in words). Our mistakes (or good deeds) become so evident in our own perception of what we have been, that *our own conscience* is what we have to answer to with the highest priority, in a way our own conscience is our toughest judge. The forces guiding our journey after we part with our physical bodies sometimes help us achieve what we, in our heart of hearts want, and must do, in order to make things right (this is very much over-simplified, and passed through the filter on my own limited, human understanding).

Coming back (in a roundabout way) to what Grahame says, I cannot imagine what it must be like to have to answer for murder to the purest ray of light, when you no longer have a body and a bunch of stupid “friends” ready to lie for you.

Sorry, I don’t mean to freak people out, I do have a regular job smile, but also humbly try to give credit to the higher aspects of our existence.

Posted by Bjorn on 01/04/14 at 09:53 PM | #

Thanks for bringing up the spiritual aspects of this case, Grahame and Bjorn. many of us have indeed experienced the white feather phenomenon associated with Meredith Kercher, or other special experiences that connect us with her.

To your other point, then yes, many of us have had near death experiences or known those who observed it, and yes, there can indeed be a recognition of all tht we have done at some point in our life, either as a realization at time of death, or, as a burden one carries life long.

I was duly impressed with Dostoevsky’s treatment of Rodion Raskolnikov in “Crime and Punishment” at school. Like Raskolnikov, Knox is seeking redemption, but, without accepting responsibility, demanding the Kerchers absolve her, and if that is not an indication of her pathology, I don’t know what is.

Rodion finds the ability to forgive himself after being sentenced to imprisonment in Siberia.

Posted by Ergon on 01/05/14 at 12:39 AM | #

(cont’d) Knox may not ever know peace until she, too, pays the price for what she did, and, accepts responsibility, and, asks for forgiveness.

Posted by Ergon on 01/05/14 at 12:40 AM | #

I don’t know what an abusive man has to do with this case (that Grahame Rhodes brings up) of a woman murdering another woman and instigating the violence and getting two men to go along with her. True studies of DV have shown that even though are physically woman are slightly more likely to hit and start up with a man then the other way and in some cases start up and claim they were abused.


Unlike some I don’t know nor care that Meridith is a saint. But she was murdered young and deserves justice and that is the issue. Not that she was a saint or not or turning him into a Martyr.

And Knox well she does deserve to go to prison no matter what happens to Knox and the other two doesn’t bring Meridith back.

One issue here which has been mentioned is Meridith had no idea how disturbed Knox was. Certainly our society focus on men this and men that caused to not even realize how serious the situation is and especially her bringing strange men into the man which in case it wasn’t an abusive man but Knox egging on men who had issues.

Maybe if our society that male female interactions are not as simple as men = 100% bad women = 100% good as G R mentioned Knox couldn’t just bring home strange men and not see it as an issue because after all she is a woman. And she would be alive today.

Also for good or for bad and I am not suggesting this makes it ok but because our society sees abuse in a twisted way Meridith didn’t realize how much she had to do to not provoke Amanda just to protect herself.

And our society seeing men as ATM machines and assuming their abusive when there are two sides to any story caused Knox to have serious problems and saw men to just use for her own crazy agenda’s and many men themselves feel they have to do whatever a woman says or else they will be accused of being abusive and controlling.

Our societal problems had a lot to do with this murder and we can’t ignore that.

I am saying this because sometimes women need a restraining order from other women but our society doesn’t care because only men are bad and only towards women.

Posted by adamk on 01/05/14 at 01:44 AM | #

I agree with what Odysseus says about ‘anachronistic dualism’.
The mind and body are intricately linked in subtle mirroring, in many ways which we are only just beginning to fully understand.
But it can also be dualistic in thinking to say that an illness is psychosomatic ...or not.
I am inclined to caution in this area, where things remain unverifiable, and therefore speculative. My main reasoning being : that for every person who is suspected of developing a psychosomatic illness or condition, there is probably one other who may be exemplary in virtue and conduct - or at least making every effort to be - and they have developed an illness or condition through pure misfortune, or a genetic mutation - events genuinely out of their own control or influence.

How many of us know wonderful people, for instance, who have had cancer, in spite of following every known advice for staying well? And how many people, again, who have done their utmost to live wisely, nevertheless develop degenerative conditions as they age? I just think we should be careful before judging others.

Certainly, unhappiness plays a part in illness and recovery. We can do a certain amount to improve ‘our lot’ regarding being happy - learning to alter key attitudes can help - but there also comes a point where we need the grace to accept what it is not possible to change.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/05/14 at 07:32 AM | #

@adamk
Some important points are raised by your comment (even though some may find it somewhat sweeping in generalizations).
Women are not automatically more caring, nurturing and empathetic, merely because they biologically carry the children and give birth to them.
They may go through added conflict and anguish, in fact, when they realize that this ‘maternal instinct’ (as it often summarized to be) is simply absent in themselves. They may feel guilty, and try and pretend, or cover this up…when perhaps it might just be sensible to allow the childcare to be carried out by someone good at it!
As a society, there is a great deal we need to understand about true empathy, and how to develop it for the good.

With regard to the darker point of women initiating a destructive act, which is then carried out by another being manipulated….this is in fact a sociopathic trait, and can operate regardless of gender involved. (It could also be two women, or two men).
However, because of the physical inequality between men and women (women are still,by and large, shorter and lighter than men)...perhaps this is why females have (historically) frequently developed cunning in manipulation?
The sociopath will be concerned with power and control, and gaining pleasure from evil deeds done by proxy. It must be a nightmare for the police and judiciary to try and find the required evidence that traces such deeds back to the (often smug) ‘mastermind’ behind the deeds.

Or should that be ‘mistressmind’?

I find it especially chilling when I read how a terrorist or a man engaged in destructive social action has escaped the authorities dressed in female clothing.
There is something insidious in the idea that the disguise of just being ‘a woman’ should make one less likely to be suspected of wrong-doing.
Wrong-doing follows wrong-thinking : who is the wrong-thinker?

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/05/14 at 08:04 AM | #

Hi Adamk
Sorry but I was not off subject. During the preceding six years or so we have got to know Knox pretty well particularly on this site which is populated by people the most part from academic backgrounds.

Here we have contributors who are doctors lawyers and psychologists and a cross section of society all of them educated, and who care for the truth and want to see justice for Meredith above all else, and we understand they why’s and wherefores plus the sickness that has driven Knox to be who she is. This is the main difference between us and the shallow pro Knox sites because we value education above so called good looks, or to quote an old saying “Beauty Is Skin Deep, But Ugly Goes Straight To The Bone”

My point was that no matter what Knox future contains, her every waking moment will contain the ‘Worm Of Guilt/The Worm Of Fear’ which will eat away at her for the rest of her natural life, and if her mental health impacts upon her physical health which I believe it will, then that will be a portion of justice which the guilty must all endure. After all, people who are in jail for any length of time get old very quickly.

As SeekingUnderstanding so rightfully points out there is a dichotomy in the society (particularly in the US) where woman are judged to a different standard than men. This is obvious considering the amount of men in the USA who are on ‘Death Row’ compared to woman in the same situation.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 01/05/14 at 09:42 AM | #

@Grahame Rhodes,
Yes, I realized to what extent A K is still haunted by the crime when I watch - such as I could bear to - parts of the home- made video she contributed to/ had made.

Also, when asked in a recent interview, about how she saw herself in a few years time, whether ‘all this would be behind her’... The look on her face in response was quite dark and unsmiling, and she said, in a solemn voice, “well…it is part of me.”

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/05/14 at 10:10 AM | #

@SeekingUnderstanding


That is quite revealing: she said, in a solemn voice, “well…it is part of me.”

This suggests that she has not yet grown over the Perugia days. That is sad. Intolerance?

Churchill is reported to have said: “men will often stumble on the truth, but most will pick themselves up and proceed”.

Patricia Cornwell made the following comments about the pursuit of truth: “If you stumble upon a truth, I don’t know what case it is, maybe this is the old journalist in me, I feel I am obligated to say something about it…”

I often wonder about what the FoA see in Amanda.

Surely some of them are really intelligent to guess the truth?

Posted by chami on 01/05/14 at 10:50 AM | #

Yes, chami, I was most struck by by that response and demeanour.
Now I recall, I think the actual words were : ” well…it is part of who I am” - which in a way shows even more involvement.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/05/14 at 11:02 AM | #

“I am inclined to caution in this area, where things remain unverifiable, and therefore speculative…”

Hear hear. I’m sure that in practice it’s not at all clear cut.

Posted by Odysseus on 01/05/14 at 11:25 AM | #

Thanks to all the people who have been retweeting my tweets to journalists and politicians. It will make a difference. My name on Twitter is @harryrag

Posted by The Machine on 01/05/14 at 12:32 PM | #

TM
Thanks for reminding me. I will try to get to grips now with how Twitter works….

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/05/14 at 12:36 PM | #

Hi SeekingUnderstanding,

Here are simple instructions on how to do it:

https://support.twitter.com/articles/100990-signing-up-with-twitter

Posted by The Machine on 01/05/14 at 01:04 PM | #

Me, too, is twitter-dumb.

No facebook, no twitter, no social media at all.

Perhaps I too will give it a try.

Posted by chami on 01/05/14 at 01:18 PM | #

Please do Chami. It has been fantastic to see posters from PMF and TJMK berating incompetent journalists like Nick Squires and correcting their false claims. Let’s make sure Meredith’s voice is never drowned out again.

Posted by The Machine on 01/05/14 at 01:27 PM | #

Point Being that since the Knox supporters, (who for the most part have a retention span of a thirty second sound bite anyway.) refuse to except that there is no statute of limitations upon murder and Knox for the rest of her life will always be guilty.

This fact I love to point out to the forces of evil because they think everything will simply go away given time. I’m sure that there will be a ‘hue and cry’ concerning her guilt and eventual extradition, but given time and after the American populous has become concerned with other things her extradition will quietly take place.

Sure there will be some mental basket cases who will hysterically scream “Injustice” Michelle Moore for one, Doug Preston for two, but it will make not one scrap of difference. Extradition may take years but her sentence will not be shortened with the passage of time.

I also love to point out that this is not *Double Jeopardy* as some people believe. They should, but won’t, check the facts. The best part is they dare not check because they know if they did then their argument would be shot down in an instant.

Onward and upward…
Never stop Never Stop.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 01/05/14 at 01:51 PM | #

I just came across Michelle Moore’s site on FaceBook. Her full name is *Michelle Celestial Easterly Moore* The psychologists/therapists herein should have a field day with that.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 01/05/14 at 02:06 PM | #

...‘Her full name is “Michelle Celestial Easterly Moore”’...

It only confirms what we already know - she’s up there with the fairies.

Posted by Odysseus on 01/05/14 at 02:35 PM | #

All you twitter phobes…just jump in…it’s pretty simple.
xoxo

Posted by Bettina on 01/05/14 at 03:21 PM | #

Hi Odysseus

Sorry to be out of date. However her Face Book page makes interesting reading. I was surprised comparatively speaking, just how few friends she actually has, but then perhaps not.

‘Suffer fools lightly’ I believe is the correct term.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 01/05/14 at 04:09 PM | #

Hi Grahame,

Yes she really does call herself by that name along with many others of course, ‘michellesings’ being another one.

She truly is a fruitcake and an internet stalker to boot.

Her M.O. seems to be stalking people online, posting obsessively on any and every obscure news sites, coupled with the threat that her wonderful and absolutely fabulous husband was once in the F.B.I. so all you people who believe in justice for Meredith Kercher better watch out or he’s comin’ to git yah!

She has an obsession with Dr. Mignini and her grasp on reality is worrying - along with her “praise the lord and pass the ammunition” mentality.

The company Amanda Knox keeps (and I do not believe for one minute she doesn’t know or isn’t responsible for any of them) is very telling.

Posted by DF2K on 01/06/14 at 03:59 PM | #

Hi DF2K

The really sad thing about Steve and Michelle Moore is that they have nothing else going for them except Knox. Consider Steve Moore’s nebulous claims regarding the FBI. Point is that if he was so tight with them, given his age, then he would still be employed by them.

I suppose that he could claim to be involved in some sort of under cover work, but that won’t wash because if that were so he would not try for a high profile protecting Knox from Mignini kind of thing. Sorry, but being fired as a security guard by Pepperdine University does not auger well for his future.

His web sight, after you get through the hyperbole, is nothing else but a self serving post of pure drivel guided by a desperate desire for greatness. Sorry but his well padded resume only fools his well worn wife and himself. If you want to see the inside of a man vainly searching for an identity then that’s it.

As to Michelle I’m afraid she’s not even worth oxygen and only takes up space anyway. It’s indicative that they are together since they obviously bolster each others fantasy of being relevant. Money must be getting short for these two for without Knox they are nothing.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 01/06/14 at 05:10 PM | #


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