Monday, June 01, 2020

Yet More Damning Evidence That Knox And Meredith Had A Physical Confrontation On The Night

Posted by The Machine

The excellent BBC report referred to below

Long post. Click here to go straight to Comments.


1. Our New Translations Continue To Talk

Hoax 4 “No firm DNA” in our right column actually consists of various sub-hoaxes, most of which I and many others here have demolished in the past. 

This post is about the “no mixed blood” sub-hoax. This is one of many evidence points quite pivotal to Amanda Knox’s major and continuing “I’m the real victim” fraud.

In this post, I’m going to debunk the myth that Dr Stefanoni never claimed there was mixed-blood evidence once and for all by providing verbatim quotations from her official report for the Massei court in 2009 and her testimony at the Micheli trial in 2008.

I’ll also put the mixed-blood evidence under the microscope and analyse the reasons why some of Italy’s top DNA experts from the Scientific Police and the RIS Carabinieri believe Amanda Knox’s blood was mixed with Meredith’s blood in different locations in the cottage.

2. Quotes From Experts And Reporters

Andrea Vogt and Barbie Nadeau

Andrea Vogt and Barbie Nadeau repeatedly reported that the prosecution’s experts from the Scientific Police had claimed that Amanda Knox’s blood was mixed with Meredith’s blood in different locations in the cottage.

Dr Stefanoni and the prosecution regarded this as damning evidence against Amanda Knox because it indicates that Knox and Meredith were both bleeding at the same time on the night of the murder and there must have been confrontation between the two.

Andrea Vogt and Barbie Nadeau are both fluent in Italian, they have access to the prosecution’s 10,000-page file and they observed the prosecution’s experts testifying in court at both Rudy Guede’s fast-track trial in 2008 and Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito’s trial in 2009. Despite this, a number of people have attempted to dismiss their reports as fake news or claim they didn’t understand what was being said in court.

However, it should be pointed out it wasn’t only Andrea Vogt and Barbie Nadeau who spoke about the mixed-blood evidence. Judge Gemelli specifically referred to the mixed-blood evidence in his Supreme Court report in 2008:

“to both the women the blood traces found in the bidet.” (Judge Gemelli’s Supreme Court report).

“quelle rinvenute nel lavandino, ad entrambe le ragazze le tracce di sangue rilevate nel bidet”

The Kerchers’ lawyer Francesco Maresca told the media outside the courtroom that the mixed-blood evidence was the most damning piece of evidence against Amanda Knox.

In Andrea Vogt’s excellent BBC documentary, the mixed-blood evidence is the first DNA evidence that is mentioned:

“First, there’s the DNA found in the bathroom. The prosecution says it shows the mixed blood of Amanda Knox and Meredith Kercher in the bidet drain, the sink drain and on a cotton bud box.  There’s also a large drop of Amanda’s blood on the bathroom tap.

“According to the prosecutor, this shows Amanda and Meredith were bleeding at the same time.

Strong evidence there was a fight.”

Trial Prosecutor Dr Comodi

Manuela Comodi also regards the mixed blood evidence as the main evidence against Knox:

“The principal evidence was mixed-blood traces from which were extracted mixed DNA of Amanda and Meredith. The only explanation for that mix is that Amanda was bleeding and touched objects covered in Meredith’s blood. There’s no other explanation.” (Manuela Comodi).

In case anyone doubts the quotations attributed to Manuela Comodi, she specifically refers to “sangue misto” - which is mixed blood - in the documentary.

Andrea Vogt and Barbie Nadeau, Judge Gemelli, Manuela Comodi and Francesco Maresca wouldn’t have specifically referred to the mixed-blood evidence if Dr Stefanoni hadn’t referred to in her official reports for the courts or whilst she was on the stand in court.

Victim’s Lawyer Dr Maresca

In Dr Maresca’s closing arguments at trial in 2009 he repeatedly refers to the mixed-blood evidence and cites the page numbers from Dr Stefanoni’s report to support his assertions:

“I refer to the report, in the records of Dr. Stefanoni acquired at the beginning of the hearing, sampling of presumed blood substance highlighted by luminol technique performed on the floor located in the room used by Romanelli Filomena, is described in page 219 finding 177 I repeat of fundamental importance, a measure of biological substance, two individuals, both women, provided a compatibility result, is compatible with the hypothesis of measurement of biological substance containing blood substance belonging to Knox Amanda and Kercher Meredith.

“Dr. Stefanoni papers 124 and 125 and the results that she inserts in her report tell us that beyond the drawing or not carried out with the same swabs also the other three report the same profile confirming that evidently the genetic profile obtained clearly corresponds to the fact there was a mixture of blood substance between the victim and Amanda Knox”.



Electropherogram of mixed-blood trace, cotton bud box #1 of 3

Dr Stefanoni’s testimony at the Massei trial

Dr Stefanoni categorically states there were three biological substances containing blood belonging to Amanda Knox and Meredith in the small bathroom and two mixed samples presumably containing blood belonging to Amanda Knox and Meredith in her official report for the Massei report.

Mixed blood in Filomena’s room (Rep.177, page 219)

‘‘un profilo genetico derivante da mistura di sostanze biologiche (conententi presumibilemente ematica)appartenenti ad almeno dui individui entrambi di sesso femmminile. Il confronto effettuati tra il genotipo derivante dalla traccia del Rep.177 con quelli appartenenti a KERCHER Meredith Susanna Cara e KNOX Amanda Marie’‘.

‘‘a genetic profile deriving from a mixture of biological substances (presumably containing blood) belonging to at least two individuals both of female gender. The comparison made between the genotype deriving from the trace of the Rep. 177 with those belonging to KERCHER Meredith Susanna Cara and KNOX Amanda Marie’‘.

Mixed blood in the bidet (Rep.66, page 119 )

‘‘The bidet: un profilo genetico derivante da mistura di sostanze biologiche conententi sangue umano appartenenti KNOX Amanda Marie (in misura minora) e KERCHER Meredith Susanna Cara (in misura maggiore)’‘.

‘‘a genetic profile deriving from a mixture of biological substances containing human blood belonging to KNOX Amanda Marie (to a lesser extent) and KERCHER Meredith Susanna Cara’‘.

Mixed blood on the cotton bud box and the basin (Rep 136-7, page 175)

‘‘contenenti certamente sostanze ematica appartenenti ad almeno dui individui entrambi di sesso femminile. Il confronto effettuati tra il genotipo derivante dalla due tracce analizzate con quelli appartenenti a KERCHER Meredith Susanna Cara e KNOX Amanda Marie’‘.

‘‘a genetic profile deriving from a mixture of biological substances certainly containing blood substances belonging to at least two individuals both of female gender. The comparison made between the genotype deriving from the two traces analyzed with those belonging to KERCHER Meredith Susanna Cara and KNOX Amanda Marie’‘

Mixed blood in the hallway (Rep.183, page 224)

‘‘un profilo genetico derivante da mistura di sostanze biologiche (conententi presumibilemente ematica)appartenenti ad almeno dui individui entrambi di sesso femmminile. Il confronto effettuati tra il genotipo derivante dalla traccia del Rep.183 con quelli appartenenti a KERCHER Meredith Susanna Cara e KNOX Amanda Marie’‘.

‘‘a genetic profile deriving from a mixture of biological substances (presumably containing blood) belonging to at least two individuals both of female gender. The comparison made between the genotype deriving from the trace of the Rep. 183 with those belonging to KERCHER Meredith Susanna Cara and KNOX Amanda Marie’‘.

Dr Stefanoni’s testimony at the Micheli trial

Dr Stefanoni categorically stated Amanda Knox’s blood was mixed with Meredith’s blood in three different spots in the small bathroom when testifying at Rudy Guede’s fast-track trial in 2008:

“mi spiego, almeno cerco di spiegarmi, allora bagno io non ho trovato soltanto una traccia ematica mista, ne ho trovato soltanto tre, piu o meno in zone molte vicinie quindi sulla scatola del cotton fioc, nel lavindo e vicino, nei pressi della scarico del bidet, tutte tre queste tracce apparivano ad occhio non essere sangue intero, mi spiego, non essere sangue cosi come viene fuori du una ferita, questa e sangue contente acqua, per il fatto del colore era practicamente rosato, per cui il fatto che per coincidenza questa tre tracce siano state poste in temp diversi mi sembra improbabile ma non lo escludo perche il DNA non datible cioe si. puo ritrovare DNA anche dopo anni.

“I’ll explain myself, at least I try to explain myself, then in the bathroom I didn’t just find one mixed-blood trace, I found three, more or less in areas very close to the cotton swab box, in the washbasin and nearby, near the drain of the bidet, all three of these traces appeared to the eye not to be whole blood, I mean, not to be blood as it comes out of a wound, this is blood containing water, due to the fact of the color it was practically pink, so it seems unlikely to me that these three traces have been placed at different times by some coincidence, but I do not exclude it because the DNA is not datable, that is yes. You can find DNA even after many years.” (Dr Stefanoni’s trial testimony, 4/10/2008 page 168)

“Una traccia ematica mista” is a mixed-blood trace.

Professor Torre asked her to confirm there was mixed blood and here’s her answer.

“Yes, the blood of both”

“Si, il sangue dell’uno e dell’altro” (Yes, the blood of one and the other).



Electropherogram of mixed-blood trace, cotton bud box #2 of 3

Confirmation from other experts

Which other experts believe Amanda Knox’s blood was mixed with Meredith’s blood?

Some of Italy’s top DNA experts from the Scientific Police and the RIS Caribinieri are sure Amanda Knox’s blood was mixed with Meredith’s blood in different locations in the cottage.

They quote a number of specific reasons i.e. there was more of Knox’s DNA in some of these mixed samples, the peaks were were of similar heights, indicating similar concentrations of DNA from both women in the samples, and some of Knox’s peaks were extremely high.

Touch DNA results in minute amounts of DNA being deposited, compared with that in blood. You can expect to find roughly ten times the number of cells in blood compared to the number of cells left from touching an object. White corpuscles provide an immense quantity of DNA compared with other substances.

According to the authors of Darkness Descending Dr Stefanoni explained to Dr Mignini how she knew Amanda Knox’s blood was mixed with Meredith - and not another substance like saliva.

“She said that she had identified a large blob of Amanda’s blood on the tap, and their blood was mixed in the basin, bidet and the cotton bud box. This meant Meredith and Amanda must have been bleeding at the same time. The implication was that Amanda had cut herself in the violence of the murder struggle. Stefanoni wanted to confirm this.

“‘Excuse my ignorance, sorry to interrupt,’ Mignini said. ‘Can you explain to me how you know the sample contains blood both from the victim and Knox? Couldn’t be just be the victim’s blood and say, another biological substance, saliva for example, from Knox?’ Stefanoni explained she knew both samples were blood because white corpuscles provide an immense quantity of DNA compared with other substances, and this sample contained a lot of Amanda’s DNA. ‘This in itself proves it is blood,’ said Stefanoni, and added ‘Actually, in some cases we see more of Amanda’s DNA than Meredith’s, such as here in the basin. This means that there is a lot of Amanda’s blood, not a smudge.’”

The explanation attributed to Dr Stefanoni is basically the same as General/Professor Garofano’s in the book.

“However, here is the electropherogram and you can see that the RFU value is very high, so the sample is undoubtedly blood, which is the body fluid that provides the greatest amount of DNA.

In some cases you see higher peaks of Amanda’s DNA than Meredith’s. Amanda has been bleeding. (Luciano Garafano, Darkness Descending, page 371).

“Let’s say the assassin used the basin and bidet to wash the knife: if you look at the electropherograms you’ll see that there seems to be more of Amanda Knox’s blood than Meredith’s. There is a copious blood loss by Amanda.”  (Luciano Garofano, Darkness Descending, page 374).

Back to Dr Stefanoni again

Dr Stefanoni testified in court that it’s possible to tell from the electropherogram who left the greater amount of blood in a mixed-blood sample:

‘‘the trace is composed of two DNAs in a quantitively different manner: maybe one has lost a tiny drop of blood and a big drop blood of the other ended up on top of it - thus a larger quantity of DNA - even this can be seen in this graph.”

Click below for a larger image. You can see in the overlay graph that some of Amanda Knox’s peaks are higher than Meredith’s.



Electropherogram of mixed-blood trace, cotton bud box #3 of 3

3. Closer look at mixed-blood evidence

This further analysis now proceeds location-by-location within the entire crime scene.

Mixed-blood evidence in hallway and Filomena’s room

Professor Garofano says the Luminol-revealed prints at the cottage are in blood because of their high luminosity and the DNA test indicated the presence of Meredith’s blood:

“But let’s see what the prints actually mean. First of all, from their sheer luminosity they are blood. The DNA test showed Meredith’s blood in all cases except for two places in which we have a mixed Amanda and Meredith sample.”

Dr Stefanoni made the same points when speaking about the Luminol prints when she was being questioned on the stand during the Massei trial:

“So I, with genetic analysis, can say with certainty that there was blood”.

She also pointed out the Luminol reacts to differently to blood compared to other substances:

“in other words everything that is not blood, is nonetheless different even if it is still a bluish fluorescence: that is, the colour does not change, [but] the intensity and the duration change. So in effect, the intensity, thus, of that blue or that azure, so intense, is not given off, in general, by other reagents that are not blood: they give a weaker fluorescence”.

Prosecutor Manuela Comodi pointed out that Dr Stefanoni had ruled out the Luminol could have been reacting to a substance other than blood:

“Remember, Stefanoni also took samples of those traces on the floor, sometimes finding the victim’s DNA, sometimes the victim’s / Knox’s mixed DNA, specifying: she would never have been able to find any DNA if the trace had been produced from rust, fruit juice or bleach.”

Here’s the relevant courtroom testimony:

QUESTION - Excuse me, doctor, you said before that since luminol enhances different substances not only blood cannot assert precisely the biological nature of those traces enhanced with luminol, but I ask you: you sampled in the biological inspection those traces there enhanced with luminol and found genetic profiles, if that trace had been produced by bleach would the genetic profiles have found them?

ANSWER - No, because bleach destroys DNA.

QUESTION - Exactly I say it was material other than biological material, let’s not call it blood, let’s call it generically biological material, it was rust, it was fruit juice, etc., would it have found genetic profiles?

ANSWER - No, DNA is specific ... that analysis is specific to human DNA. We said this.

Mixed-blood evidence in small bathroom #1

Barbie Nadeau told Denis Murphy from NBC that the mixed-blood evidence in the bidet convinced Dr Stefanoni that Knox was involved in Meredith’s murder:

“The most damaging forensic evidence against Amanda was what the prosecution’s expert said was mixed blood DNA of Amanda and Meredith found on the drain of the bidet.”

“Barbie Nadeau: She was convinced that it showed that Amanda Knox was involved in this crime.”

There was a live chat with Barbie Nadeau on The Daily Beast website and Bruce Fischer - a muddled fur coat salesman from Chicago’s outer suburbs - disagreed with Barbie’s claim there was mixed-blood evidence. This was her response:

“There are mixed genetic traces in spots of blood in which Amanda’s traces are higher than Meredith’s. That implies mixed blood according to the dozens of forensics experts I’ve interviewed about this.” (Barbie Nadeau, The Daily Beast).

It speaks volumes about Barbie’s diligence and her ethical commitment to the truth that she checked to see whether dozens of forensic scientists agreed with Dr Stefanoni’s claim. Barbie wasn’t prepared to accept her claim at face value. It should also be noted that they did agree.

Mixed-blood evidence in small bathroom #2

We look here at the significance of the three mixed-blood traces in the small bathroom in relation to Amanda Knox’s blood on the tap

Both Dr Stefanoni and Professor Garofano think it’s significant that Amanda Knox’s blood was found alone on the tap close to the three mixed-blood samples in the small bathroom because it provides further corroboration that Amanda Knox’s blood was mixed with Meredith’s blood.

Professor Garofano said it ”is logical to the put bloodstain in relation with the blood in the bidet and washbasin”.

Dr Stefanoni also thought it is significant there were three mixed-blood samples in the small bathroom were close to Knox’s blood on the tap. She made this point at Rudy Guede’s fast-track trial:

“So, let’s say, this reasoning that has been addressed by both you and Professor Torre is not taken into account, however, also of another circumstance which, however, must be recognized if you do not express a judgment, let’s say, of any kind that always in the narrow sampling area, just a short distance from the traces of the cotton swab, from the traces in the sink and from the traces in the bidet which were, let’s say, objects close enough, let’s say, in the space there is also a trace of blood not apparently washed out whole blood, as I say, on the tap of this sink that belongs only to a person [Amanda Knox].”

Amanda Knox’s forensic expert Sarah Gino acknowledges that Knox’s blood might have been mixed with Meredith’s blood, though she also claims it’s possible the blood was left at different times:

“Maybe there was blood from both of them [Amanda Knox and Meredith Kercher], but what does that mean? Maybe someone had a bloody nose one time and then at another moment someone cut their finger and put it down and their blood got mixed.” (Dr Sarah Gino, Amanda Knox’s forensic expert).

But Professor Garofano for one ruled out the possibility that Knox’s blood on the tap was old blood and it was touched it:

“Amanda’s blood is recent. It is dry, but it hasn’t been touched or cleaned. There is no fingerprint in it.”

Professor Garofano also ruled out the possibility that the blood in the basin was old blood:

“Nor is it old blood as the defence might say, because blood decays fast.”

Francesco Maresca pointed out in his closing arguments that Amanda Knox herself had admitted there was no blood in the small bathroom on the afternoon of 1 November 2007:

“Just a few seconds to draw your attention to some passages of the examination made in front of you by Amanda Knox, in cards 49 she reiterates that on November 1st, the afternoon before the murder, obviously there were no traces of blood in the bathroom and in the house”.

4. Various Conclusions From All Of This

The extract of Dr Stefanoni’s courtroom testimony above from the Micheli trial shatters the myth that she didn’t claim there was mixed-blood evidence.

It also proves that Andrea Vogt and Barbie Nadeau weren’t lying and they didn’t misunderstand what had been said in court.

Also Judge Massei didn’t confirm the prosecution’s assertion that Amanda Knox’s blood was mixed with Meredith because, he said, Dr Stefanoni didn’t definitively rule out the possibility that Knox’s DNA was from a substance other than blood and the fact she didn’t have any visible wounds.

It should be pointed out that Judge Massei isn’t a forensic scientist. He doesn’t have any forensic qualifications, experience or training. He doesn’t know how to read and interpret electropherograms.

However, he still thought the mixed traces in the small bathroom were evidence that she had washed Meredith’s blood off in the small bathroom so he tilted toward Dr Stefanoni.

The Italian Supreme Court agreed with how Massei handled this said the mixed traces were “eloquent proof” she had washed Meredith’s blood off in the small bathroom - which is still damning evidence against her.

Dr Stefanoni’s forensic finding that Amanda Knox’s blood was mixed with Meredith’s blood in different locations in the cottage has been confirmed by Dr Biondo - the head of the DNA Unit of the Scientific Police - and Professor Garofano - the former head of the RIS Carabinieri. They both have PhDs in forensic science. It’s safe to assume they know what they’re talking about.

Amanda Knox’s hardcore supporters have claimed for years that they have read all the official court transcripts (really? most are still not translated) and they were absolutely adamant that Dr Stefanoni didn’t testify there was mixed-blood evidence.

They were lying - clearly - and they were completely wrong. There’s no justification for their absolute certainty.  No-one should believe anything they say unless it can be corroborated because they have proved themselves to be dishonest and untrustworthy time and time again.

I’d rather trust the professional opinions of DNA experts such as Dr Stefanoni, Dr Biondo and Professor Garofano than someone who has no forensic qualifications or experience. They are well-qualified and extremely experienced forensic scientists who have analysed DNA evidence from countless crime scenes.

Very fine work.

Posted by The Machine on 06/01/20 at 03:53 PM in

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