Sunday, February 22, 2015

No-Extradition Hoax - In Fact Perps Usually Learn Of Requests Only After Their Arrests

Posted by Peter Quennell

Mafia boss Domenico Rancadore who Italy has long wanted back now in London under arrest

1. The Probable Suddenness Of Arrest

Knox’s final conviction with no further appeal is likely by end-March. She can certainly expect that.

Knox has talked about a fight. But what fight? Not a single lawyer familiar with the extradition treaty, the hard evidence, or the precise decisions of the courts has sustained the hoax that Knox has a real shot.   

As to why, you may like to check our past posts down below, which explain the precedents and the law. The latest posts are at the top.

The other thing Knox may expect - or not expect - is that the US Marshals will arrive at her current whereabouts within minutes of the verdict to lock her up. Search the Internet on extraditions and associated arrests, and there are two things you are unlikely to find:

  • Examples of countries refusing to extradite to Italy once the complete legal process is done. Italy’s system is known to be fair and precise and to give defendants breaks no other system does. For example, Knox had six opportunities to convince judges and prosecutors she was innocent even before she ever went to trial. You wont find a foreign parallel to that.

  • Examples of countries signaling an extradition request in the public domain. Usually the first that most people in most countries - and the perps themselves - learn about extradition requests is when the perp is already sitting in a cell. For obvious reasons the US and the UK and Italy all have policies in place to avoid signalling an arrest in advance.

The perp may choose then to fight but it will be from inside a cell. We can find no cases where any country ever turned down an Italian government request after the full legal process had been and gone. Not one.

The UK seemed to be making an unfortunate exception (much ridiculed withing the UK itself) in the case of Mafia boss Domenico Rancadore who Italy long wanted back.  But his trial is still ahead of him, and now he too is under arrest and in a cell.

His 18-month extradition fight has cost him a huge amount and (see below) the voracious UK media chased him every time he stepped outside (already shades of the UK media and Knox).

In Knox’s case there seem neither the lawyers nor the money needed to do better than Mr Rancadore. Lawyer Ted Simon, who seemed to function more as a spin doctor, jumped or was dropped when Knox’s team became 100% ineffective amateurs desperate for a payday themselves. 

2. Main Past Posts on This Hoax

    Click here: The US Lacks Legal Authority To Decline To Deliver A Guilty Knox To Italian Authorities.

    Click here: Tips For The Media: In Fact Knox Extradition Is Likely To Be Readily Granted.

    Click here:  US Measures Available To Italy To Secure Wrongdoers Without Argument

    Click here:  Human Rights Group “Human Rights Watch” Gives An Approving Nod To Italy.

    Click here:  Appeal Session #10: After Defense Remarks Panel Of Judges Reaches Its Decision: BOTH GUILTY.

    Click here:  Rejected Yet Again By Knox, Sollecito Seems Frantic To Avoid What Might Be A Final Return To Italy.

    Click here:  The Prospects In Favor Of A Possible Fugitive Amanda Knox Take Yet Another Hit.

    Click here:  Some Homework For Curt Knox/Marriott/FOA: How Leaning On Italian Judiciary Can Seriously Misfire.

    Click here:  Another US-Italian Case Shows The Utter Futility Of Trying To Strongarm The Italian Justice System.

    Click here:  Italian Judge Ruling Is Tough But Fair In Another Case Involving Americans.

    Click here: The Considerable Number Of Suspected Perps That Countries Extradite Daily To Other Countries #2.

    Click here:  The Considerable Number Of Suspected Perps That Countries Extradite Daily To Other Countries.

    Click here:  CIA v. State Department: A Significant Development For The Perugia Case?

Before arrest Rancadore and wife trying to keep their faces off UK TV


Obviously, dont tell Knox…

If there is any sympathy anywhere among American officialdom for Knox we dont pick it up. They have better things to do. Senator Cantwell seems to feel an emotional pull, but we know that at least once her own staffers pulled her back from the brink.

Both RS and AK and their families have given plenty of hints that they could be flight risks, never a very good idea if one wants to pull this off. Most blatant of all was Sollecito heading for the Italian border before Judge Nencini had even said his final words.

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Posted by Peter Quennell on 02/22/15 at 09:57 PM | #

It is truly amazing that the Knox bunch (for the most part kids anyway) live in some wondrous altered universe. The big claim from some of them is that Knox will never be extradited because she is American. Knox herself is in total denial of course. If you read her web page that comes across loud and clear. They would never ever bother to read ‘True Justice’ because they are totally convinced that it is run by “Guilters” and is a hate site anyway.

In that they are right but not in the way they think. Knox herself has said, time out of mind, that she is hated. Personally I do not hate sick people. But I do hate the self serving crooks liars and con artists such as Steve and Michelle Moore, Bruce Fischer, Curt Knox and Christ Mellas who use Merediths murder for their own ends while pretending to be altruists. About Chris Mellas I’m not so sure though since he does not exhibit too much intelligence but perhaps I’m wrong. Some of them have stopped denigrating the Kerchers but I’m sure they will surface next month.

Others, such as Karen Pruet, want a review of the evidence believing that a review will prove Knox innocence. I always try to remind them to be careful what they wish for. The usual goons at groundreport Hinkertom/Fredly or whoever they are this week are convinced that it’s all a vast conspiracy thought up by the evil Mignini and his Chinese Pirates. So much for living in a dream world because they are of the belief that their silly opinions will make any difference. Also I see that as time has gone on public perception of Knox as victim has changed from pro to negative.
May they all live in interesting times.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 02/23/15 at 01:13 AM | #

@Grahame Rhodes

May they all live in interesting times…

I am quite certain that they do live in interesting times. When they will wake up from their dreams and face the reality?

Perhaps the only way to avoid the hangover is to stay drunk perpetually…

I too suspect that Amanda darling is sick but what about the virtual army defending her?

Richard Gott (an American Cosmologist) has written a wonderful book on time travel and what kind of strange things happen in alternate universes and I wish someone should present a copy to the creative writer!

Posted by chami on 02/23/15 at 06:48 AM | #

Someday ( I might do it myself) someone will produce a psychological profile and study of why some people are predisposed to defending the indefensible. For example such people as George Barlow from Cambridgeshire England believe sincerely that Knox is innocent. Of course he also believes that Jody Arias is innocent as well, so he writes reams of copy to try to prove this belief.

Such is the same failing of the Knox supporters who, in site of all the evidence to contrary insist that it does not exist, or is made up, or is some vast Machiavellian scheme to railroad their little born again virgin. Such people as Karen Pruet who know the Knox family personally, I can see in their virulent predisposition their narrow view of Innocence but it won’t wash. Without a doubt they are holding onto the belief that once the extradition request comes down that some circuit judge will squash it and that will be the end of that.

Perhaps they should read the extradition treaty, but of course they won’t or better still they will put all kinds of spin on it in the mad belief of it’s none existence. Mind you, my bet is that the extradition request is all ready to go. Not long now anyway.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 02/23/15 at 09:28 PM | #

Well Grahame, I can give you the condensed version of a profile.  Defending such people can result in:

(a) Wealth - lawyers, authors, ‘‘experts’’ ...
(b) illusion of expertise - lawyers, authors, experts ...
(c) Name recognition - lawyers, authors, experts
(d) A sense of purpose - a new form of ‘‘religion’‘
(e) All of the above

Posted by Chimera on 02/24/15 at 02:28 AM | #

Been looking into extradition for a while.

An extradition warrant is prima-facie evidence that a person is a fugitive from justice[ix]. 

“Generally, bail is not available after a warrant is issued.  The Uniform Criminal Extradition Act does not provide for bail after an extradition warrant is issued.  However, the Uniform Extradition and Rendition Act provides for conditional release on bail of an accused after the issuance of an extradition warrant[x]. 

A person released on bail shall be available for hearing even after release on bail.  A bail can be granted in a case where delay occurs in an extradition hearing.”

So if there are no delays, it might be sooner, than later.

Posted by Ergon on 02/24/15 at 03:40 AM | #

Interesting link, Ergon.  Hope you don’t mind me quoting more of it.


Generally, a warrant should contain details with regard to a fugitive, the demanding state, details of the request from the demanding state, and the crime the fugitive is charged with in the demanding state.  A warrant should also contain the way in which it has to be implemented and a direction to produce a fugitive before the judge.

A warrant issued under an invalid statute is unenforceable.  An extradition order may be reversed if a governor mistakenly issued a fugitive warrant under an incorrect statutory code when the fugitive had not been charged with a crime in a demanding state.[v]

An order of extradition is not subject to direct appeal.  It may be reviewed in a habeas corpus proceeding.  The legality of extradition proceedings will be tested in a review during the habeas corpus proceeding.  Once a governor has granted an extradition warrant, a court considering release on habeas corpus will decide only whether[vi]:

-the extradition documents are in order on their face;
-the fugitive has been charged with a crime in the demanding state;
-the petitioner is the person being demanded ; and
-the petitioner is a fugitive.


Regarding habeas corpus:
(a) Smears aside, there is nothing to indicate the paperwork wouldn’t be in good order.
(b) Knox has not only been charged, but has been provisionally convicted since December 2009, and has now exhausted all her appeals.
(c) Yes, she is the person being sought.
(d) In her dumbest moments, she actually brags about becoming a fugitive, so burden met right there.

I would further add, that since Knox has refused to attend her Florence 2013/2014 appeal, and the 2015 Cassation appeal, any cries of ‘‘unfair’’ likely won’t be taken seriously.

And again, the 2011 Hellmann appeal ‘‘acquittal’’ will not save her - Double Jeopardy - for a number of reasons:
(1) She was not cleared at trial.  Rather, she was convicted at trial, and it was ‘‘thrown out’’ on appeal.  Not double jeopardy in America, because you have to ‘‘waive’’ double jeopardy to file an appeal.
(2) Even if an appeal is successful, in America, the prosecution has the right to appeal higher court.
(3) The Italian legal system is well known for having the 3 tier system (trial + 2 automatic appeals), and only when Cassation rules is it final.
(4) Given how the Hellmann-Zanetti appeal was conducted, it would still have been annulled even if it was a trial.

Good website though.

Posted by Chimera on 02/24/15 at 04:40 AM | #

Thank’s Ergon Very interesting. Also Chimers. The view that profiling also leads to a new religion is telling. This after all is the motivation plus the modus oporandi of the Knoxaholics. Thank you for that. As for me I will keep on digging. There must be something in the wind hence the deafening silence from the usual quartet of trolls.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 02/24/15 at 04:40 AM | #

I will be writing a post on extradition for TJMK and PMF.NET in March 😊

Posted by Ergon on 02/24/15 at 05:27 AM | #

The Psychology of Denial by those who support Amanda Knox

Those individuals, groups etc: who live in the world of deep denial are practically untouchable by reality or rational argument. They go through their daily lives secure in the knowledge that their self-image is protected against any information, feelings, or awareness that might make them have to change their view of the world. Nothing—not facts, not observable behavior; not the use of reason, logic, or the evidence of their own senses will make them reevaluate that world.

All events will simply be reinterpreted to fit into the belief system of that world—no matter how ridiculous, how distorted, hysterical or how psychotic that reinterpretation appears to others. Consistency, common sense, reality, and objective truth are unimportant and are easily discarded—as long as the world view remains intact. There are countless strategies—rhetorical ploys and logical fallacies—that can be used to keep the truth at bay. Identifying the underlying motivational factors are important to understand the phenomenon of denial; the reasons why denial is used; and the overall psychology of deniers—whether they are individuals, groups, or even entire nations.

There are limitations to this kind of analysis, however; and it is that exposing a motivation or even a hidden agenda in denial is not the same thing as a rational argument or analysis of what the denier is saying or arguing.•

The denier will begin to distort language and logic in order to rationalize and justify their behavior. Eventually, cognitive strategies and rational argument will be abandoned altogether by the denier, because those strategies are not sustainable and they are unable to convince others; at which point the person in denial will simply refer to his feelings or emotions as the sole justification.•

The denier must then place the blame for the unacceptable reality on someone else (Mignini, The Italian Justice System, Perugian authority, The US State Department etc:) and that leads to increased conflict between deniers and non-deniers. Efforts to maintain their denial consumes them and will lead them to escalate their anger and rage as their denial becomes untenable and ever more obvious.•

The denier will feel justified in acting out against those who threaten the peacefulness of their fantasy.

This accounts for the ever increasing hysteria emanating from Seattle and elsewhere. The virulent attacks on persons who do not share their view, no matter how ridiculous, will become ever more prevalent. It also accounts for their view of the world which is best described as living in a bubble of denial surrounded by people who tell each other what they want to hear. In other words anything but the truth.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 02/24/15 at 06:25 AM | #

@Grahame Rhodes

Very true. We all tend to cling rigidly to our beliefs until they prove unhelpful (sometimes ruinous) in navigating the world.

Aldous Huxley was once asked if he understood madness and he replied “if you started in the wrong way everything that happened would be a proof of the conspiracy against you. It would all be self-validating, you couldn’t draw a breath without knowing it was part of the plot.”

The Knoxophiles started with the wrong belief (they were determined that a fair damsel could not commit such a crime) and have inevitably been led to their current barking madness where a whole nation must be deemed evil.

If they had been rational people they would have instead started with open minds and then taken an objective, sober view of the evidence. Ironically this is of course the scientific method which some of them, in their delusions of grandeur, profess to follow.

They are really a zany religious cult founded on the worship of face values (literally!).

Posted by Odysseus on 02/24/15 at 12:39 PM | #

Between all this denial Gogerty Marriott is a very special breed.

Posted by Helder Licht on 02/24/15 at 04:21 PM | #

Registration of sex offenders is required in the US regardless of where the crime occurred. On March 25, 2015 Raffaele will go directly to prison and Amanda Knox will be arrested in Seattle by the US Marshals on a provisional arrest warrant. With the recent response by a Department of Justice representative here:

it is now abundantly clear that Knox is no friend of the DOJ. She will be arrested, registered and extradited very quickly. Here is the relevant US code:

18 U.S. Code § 3187 - Provisional arrest and detention within extraterritorial jurisdiction

The provisional arrest and detention of a fugitive, under sections 3042 and 3183 of this title, in advance of the presentation of formal proofs, may be obtained by telegraph upon the request of the authority competent to request the surrender of such fugitive addressed to the authority competent to grant such surrender. Such request shall be accompanied by an express statement that a warrant for the fugitive’s arrest has been issued within the jurisdiction of the authority making such request charging the fugitive with the commission of the crime for which his/her extradition is sought to be obtained.

Some of us think that Amanda Knox has already gone into hiding up in Canada.

Posted by Johnny Yen on 02/24/15 at 04:41 PM | #

Short trip to Vancouver which will do absolutely no good at all. of course she could always join a cult…Oh sorry she already has.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 02/24/15 at 05:57 PM | #

@Johnny Yen, Amanda possibly in Canada hiding? it’s certainly possible. She can use her French like her heroine Amelie of the movie then perhaps tritty-trot along the Canadian border all the way eastward to arrive in New York State and enter it from the north. She could then proceed to a prepared hideout garnished by her New Yorker fiancé Mr. Sutherland. No doubt his family has a few cabins on lakes and shores.

She may play Anne of Green Gables and try Prince Edward Island.

Posted by Hopeful on 02/24/15 at 06:12 PM | #

Come to think of it, that’s not so far fetched since the forces of denial have gone very silent of late. However if that happens to be the case then it’s only a question of time.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 02/24/15 at 06:31 PM | #

I read at Andrea Vogt’s a lot of Ndrangheta have been caught. A lot infiltrated into politics too.

BTW and OT of course: how’s Girlanda doing?

Posted by Helder Licht on 02/24/15 at 08:29 PM | #

Hi Helder Licht

1) Re the Ndrangheta arrests there is an okay take in English here.

We often post on how the Italian justice system remorselessly keeps going against the mafias and is very admired as a result (Mignini is one of those specially selected to be part of the fight).

2) Re MP Rocco Girlanda. This slobbering Girlanda?

This evasive Girlanda?

This Girlanda one jump ahead of the law?

They seem a thing of the past since (it was rumored) his wife threw him out. He is now the parliamentary secretary of this guy.

Here is another of the foolish roosters, who understands neither Italian politics nor what happened to the hapless Hellmann, thinking that if he can nail Girlanda he gets to hijack the Knox parade.

Now that Amanda Knox has, again, been found guilty of the murder of Meredith Kercher, extradition to Italy has entered the conversation.  That discussion, so far has focused on whether a U.S. citizen’s Fifth Amendment right against double-jeopardy would protect the Seattle university student from extradition.

Fair enough.  But missing is a reading of the bilateral extradition treaty between the United States and Italy.  Specifically, Article 5 of the treaty, which reads:

“Extradition shall not be granted when the offense for which extradition is requested is a political offense/or if the person whose surrender is sought proves that the request for surrender has been made in order to try or punish him or her for a political offense.”

Was Amanda Knox’s “political offense” the fact she was an American?  And was her second “political offense” the possibility she became a pawn that two battling Italian political parties used to further their own agendas?

These seem to be reasonable questions given Claudio Hellmann’s comments. They deserve answers.

Doug Longhini

Posted by Peter Quennell on 02/24/15 at 11:54 PM | #

Interesting article in The Independent about US serial killer Dennis Rader, containing this nugget:

“Rader could often be reckless in how he went about his murders – despite planning them with care; manipulative of his immediate family and of his community; arrogant in his demand for attention; and grandiose in his belief that he would not be caught and that he had somehow befriended the police officer assigned to catch him. He gave a jaw-droppingly insensitive performance in front of the judge and the families of his victims.  He was at last publicly living the life less ordinary that he had always craved, and could only previously achieve in private when he killed.


AK’s jaw-droppingly insensitive act at the police station and in her court appearances (e.g.“All you need is love”) come rushing to mind.  Fortunately a life more ordinary, behind bars, also looms for this particular murderer. Who knows, once in jail for 28 year - and realising she’s just another inmate - she might confess if she thinks it will resurrect the notoriety she obviously revels in?

Posted by Odysseus on 02/25/15 at 01:05 AM | #

Hello Odysseus,
Yes, I tend to feel too that she’s longing to tell, or blurt it out. I believe she will, but only when she thinks she will gain…whatever (in her thinking).

My response to her expression in the last photo - after the ‘engagement’ announcement ... Is that she is a) extremely angry b) despondent c) resigned d) not contrite.

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 02/25/15 at 02:08 AM | #

@ Grahame,
@ Hopeful,
@ Johhny Yen,

As for suggestion that Knox would come up to Canada (via British Columbia), that would be a total crapshoot…. doesn’t seem likely.

First, given her record, she’d be legally inadmissible.  Even D.U.I. can screw someone up, if not declared.  Take the singer, Chris Brown.  His was assault, not murder.

Second, any option of working legally are completely out.  She could not get a visa, or social insurance number (needed to work).  Options for working off the books are minimal, and Revenue Canada is requiring verification of S.I.N.s BEFORE they pay out salaries.

Third, many towns and cities, including my hometown of Thunder Bay, have large Italian communities.  It would not sit well if it were ever learned Knox were here.

Fourth, Canadian laws are changing, making it easier to deport people convicted of crimes here, and there is movement (the proposed Omar Kadhr law), to strip citizenship from people who fight abroad.  Knox would have no sympathy, and no money to fight here.

True, some slimy Canadian lawyer might take her case pro-bono, but Knox has the same appeal as Karla Homolka.

Fifth, and very significantly, she would be deported (best case), if she were ever found.  Worst case, she would be held and shipped to Italy.

Sixth, if Knox were located in Canada and detained, she would lose any (if there was any), hope of getting U.S. help to fight extradition.  Though Canada and the U.S. are close, the U.S. could not demand the Canadians refuse to extradite.  And under the circumstances, the Canadians would certainly not grant bail.

Seventh, knowing French would not help Knox much. Except for Quebec, and a few towns in the East, Canada is overwhelmingly English speaking. Quebec French is nothing like European French.  In British Columbia, there is more Chinese than French.  And Quebecers can instantly tell a non-native speaker.

Eighth, Canada has a mandatory sex offender registration for many offences.  And laws are now such (I believe), that a foreigner with a qualifying offence would have to register REGARDLESS of where it took place.

Yes, it is possible to sneak across the border and   use cash for everything, and perhaps some fake papers.  But that act can’t last long.  And she doesn’t strike me as the type to avoid drawing attention to herself.

Sorry to dump reality down on this notion.

Posted by Chimera on 02/25/15 at 03:48 AM | #

Hi Chimera No worries. I thought after I posted Knox going anywhere other than NY is unlikely at the very least. Any border crossing these days upon examination of her passport would realize that it was red flagged. Also I do believe that Knox in her egoism is convinced (a la Jodi Arias ) that she can lie way out. Also having surrounded herself with enablers she is told what she wants to hear.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 02/25/15 at 05:37 AM | #

I forgot to mention I went onto the Mail on line and pointed out Knox’s invisibility just in case. They seem to be the ones who are dogging her the most so since they know just where she might be I thought it worthwhile. It can’t harm.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 02/25/15 at 05:41 AM | #

Just watching the late news. Once more the U.S. state department has made a formal request to Poland for the extradition of Roman. Polanski which once more is making it’s way through the Polish legal system. Polanski is a Polish citizen of course but the formal request has gone in anyway and according to CNN the Polish Judge is looking at extradition very seriously this time around. I don’t have to explain the significance of this, but it is a very positive thing for final justice for Meredith and a very negative thing for Knox.

Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 02/25/15 at 09:40 AM | #

Hi Chimera

You make an important point. Countries dont usually want to house perps on the lam regardless of the status of extradition treaties and have many other measures to make life unpleasant.

RS was trying to set himself up in (1) the US (2) Dominican Republic (3) Switzerland and possibly (4) Cyprus. We believe the Swiss hounded him out of there.

Convicted CIA chief Robert Lady who we have often posted on was about to be sent to Italy by Panama just based on the Red Notice, no extradition treaty was in place then.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 02/25/15 at 03:05 PM | #

Hi Grahame

What is your take on the Mail Online? A few of their spreads seem to have been done with Knox collusion but various other reports with images suggest not.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 02/25/15 at 03:09 PM | #


Re:“My response to her expression in the last photo - after the ‘engagement’ announcement ... Is that she is a) extremely angry b) despondent c) resigned d) not contrite

If you were referring to these photos I see what you mean:


No contrition there at all. Just self-pity because, after all, in her mind she’s done nothing wrong. Cruel world and all that.

Posted by Odysseus on 02/25/15 at 05:24 PM | #

Yes. The gracelessness is really showing. (An understatement).

Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 02/25/15 at 11:18 PM | #

@Chimera, thank you for the facts that show Knox will not get away with hiding in Canada so easily. It’s always better to know the facts than vague surmise.

Quebec are French speakers but it’s interesting about the Italian presence so far North and the Chinese population in Canada.

Posted by Hopeful on 02/26/15 at 12:23 AM | #

@ Hopeful

Yes, I know Quebecers speak French, but my point is that listening to it ... it sounds very different than European French.  Much more slangy.

All of the major cities in Canada: Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Calgary, etc… have Italian populations.  Even some smaller cities (I was born in Thunder Bay, ON), have have it as well.

On a personal note, I’ve had 2 sisters marry into Italian families.  A bit old fashioned in-laws, but lovely people.

On the whole, the case is much, MUCH lower profile in Canada, but this could change if Knox does come here.  This whole Italy bashing would leave a bad taste, and Knox’s ‘‘frame the black guy’’ would leave most feeling repulsed.

Odd, even if Knox were facing the death penalty in the U.S., we wouldn’t protect her.  We sent Charles Ng back, who was subsequently sentenced to be executed.

Posted by Chimera on 02/26/15 at 03:03 AM | #

Definitely not Montreal for Knox, the Sollecitos have a BIG footprint there 😊

Posted by Ergon on 02/26/15 at 04:40 AM | #

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